Series 1 Episode 3

[00:00:00] Speaker A: More music, better mental health only on IPL radio. [00:00:07] Speaker B: And you're in the studio for all the things with Jen, Jen and Liz. [00:00:11] Speaker C: How we going today, guys? [00:00:12] Speaker B: How you going? And we're joined by our very special guest, Hayden Thorne. [00:00:17] Speaker A: Hello. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Hey, how you going? [00:00:19] Speaker A: Good. Thanks for having me. [00:00:20] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for coming. [00:00:21] Speaker C: So you're from. [00:00:23] Speaker A: Where am I from? [00:00:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:00:25] Speaker A: Wow. I am from in terms of where do I live? [00:00:30] Speaker B: What do you, what, what are you here for? What are you here to talk about? [00:00:33] Speaker A: I'm here to talk about recovery. Addiction. Recovery. I come from, Yeah. A long, you know, 20 year cycle of addiction and I have been now clean and sober for just over seven years. I work in. [00:00:48] Speaker C: Congratulations. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Thank you, thank you. Yeah, it's been a, been a long road, but it's, it's a great road to travel. Yeah. I work in mental health and AOD support work. I work at a place called Tenacious House which is a men's residential rehab based out in Bullsruck. And I also run my own business called Rebuild Recovery, which is exciting starting and new. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:12] Speaker A: And it's all about fitness, mindset, discipline, structure, particularly for men in recovery who have been through addiction, maybe been to rehab and feel like they're stuck or they're struggling on the other side. [00:01:26] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:01:26] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's a bit about me. [00:01:28] Speaker B: I have noticed a lot that people that do go into rehab do get fit and do focus and it does help with their mental health to focus on the physical side of things. And so you've brought that element into it as well. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah, look, there's so many different elements that encompasses recovery. It's not, for me, it's not just about the getting clean, it's about staying clean. Well, it's about the lifestyle. [00:01:52] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:01:53] Speaker A: For me, addiction was such a big lifestyle for me. It's all I knew. [00:01:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:01:57] Speaker A: So now I've had to shift that into recovery is all I know. And yeah, fitness is a big part of that. I think if we talk sort of further on, there's four big elements that I like to talk about and that's the emotional, the physical, the mental and the emotional. Physical, mental and spiritual elements. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Spiritual. We're good with that. Yes, sounds good. Okay. So do you want to talk a little bit about your story and how you came to this? [00:02:24] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Do you want to. I'll go right back to the beginning. [00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah, go on, go on. I like that. Yeah, yeah, Paint a good picture for us. [00:02:31] Speaker A: Yeah, Look, I started using drugs and alcohol when I was around 14. So, you know, 30 years ago 35 years ago. 31 years ago. Yeah. I still remember the first night that I used marijuana for the first time. I think the lead up to that, I had my parents separated. Like, I think there's a. Like a formula sometimes for addicts. Yeah, you have, you know, the separated parents. You're bullied at school. There's all these different things going on in your life, some sort of trauma, some sort of coping mechanism that comes along with it. So, yeah, I wasn't allowed to go to a New Year's Eve party, but I was allowed to go to a friend's dad's house. And probably that was the mistake my parents made letting me go to this party. Friend's dad's house. And it was about. [00:03:21] Speaker B: Was he the one that gave it to you? [00:03:22] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:03:24] Speaker A: Midnight. And he passed me the bong for the first time and. And I had been through a fair bit with family. Yeah, there's a. I suppose there's a backstory there too, but I'd moved from Queensland to. Back to WA when I was about 13 years old, pretty abruptly and was separated from mum to dad. And when I entered school at 13, I was a year older than everyone else and I had hair, legs and I was. [00:03:53] Speaker B: So did I. Yeah. [00:03:56] Speaker A: So, you know, so that was a pickup, you know, the bully point. [00:03:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:03:59] Speaker A: I was a brand new kid at school. [00:04:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:04:01] Speaker A: So, yeah, I remember being handed this. This bong for the first time and smoking it and went, oh, my God, what an escape. This is amazing. This is what I've been looking for, you know, like, I was like, wow, this is for me. [00:04:14] Speaker C: For some people. [00:04:15] Speaker B: No, it wasn't like that. [00:04:16] Speaker C: The ADHD brain works differently, though. [00:04:18] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:04:18] Speaker B: No, I just don't like it. It just doesn't agree with me. [00:04:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:04:22] Speaker B: I didn't feel what everyone else felt. So. [00:04:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember laying on the trampoline, looking up at the stars and thinking, like, I just have this relief. [00:04:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:04:31] Speaker A: I don't have to worry about what's going on in my world at the moment. Yeah, I can just zone out and so, yeah, it just. It started from there. So for a long time, for me, it was. I was the guy that always had. It always had drugs. So moved from marijuana into party drugs, ecstasy, MDMA trips and things like that. Yeah. And I was the guy that always had it always guys always went harder. I was the guy that always was kept going and going and going. Everyone would stop and I would just continue on in the party. [00:05:02] Speaker B: The party. [00:05:04] Speaker A: And that was it. [00:05:05] Speaker C: The one up at 4:00am yeah. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Well, I was up for it the next day. Yeah. So that it continued on and it just become a lifestyle. [00:05:13] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:05:14] Speaker A: I would walk, I traveled Australia and I'd walk into a new town and they'd go, hey mate, do you. I know that you smoke weed. Like come with us. That's like. I just, like I just pick up mates along the way and it would just be instant. [00:05:25] Speaker B: So you have one of those faces. I don't think you do. [00:05:28] Speaker A: I think I did. [00:05:30] Speaker B: Maybe it was the red eyes. [00:05:32] Speaker A: I think it was, I think it was. But I think I just had that vibe and it just continued on and it turned into, yeah, just something I did every day. [00:05:41] Speaker D: Yeah, right. [00:05:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:43] Speaker B: And so from that, you know, everyday smoking pot, then how did things spiral into something. Yeah, you need rehabilitation from. [00:05:52] Speaker A: So I, I was living in Bendigo, Victoria at the time and I decided that I was. I'd met my wife on my travels on my soon to be wife. We're still together today, which is great. We weren't though. I'll get into that. [00:06:08] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:06:10] Speaker A: And I stopped smoking marijuana and I swapped it with speed and it was. [00:06:17] Speaker C: Like, oh, so it's not the greatest swap. [00:06:19] Speaker A: No, it was like it's going from. [00:06:21] Speaker B: You probably thought it was at the time. [00:06:22] Speaker A: At the time I thought I was going from full strength coke to coke nose sugar, that sort of substitute, you know, and, and that, that was okay for a while. Like I was managing and I was doing okay. And it wasn't until I came back to Western Australia in about 2008, I was started working in recruitment. I was working for an organization that did accounting and finance recruitment. Really high pressure, high sales environment. And yeah, I was again, I had that, one of those faces. And I was offered methamphetamines in your recruitment company? Yeah, it was okay. We're going out partying and it was a huge drinking culture. So the sales environment. Oh yeah, the lads, it was like you hit the ding, ding, ding sales targets. You were out drinking that afternoon and celebrating. And so it was a massive drinking culture and I'd never been a really big drinker but when someone offered me meth, I was like, oh, okay, I like drugs. I've been okay on drugs before. I've used a lot of speed and that sort of thing. So yeah, it smashed me and I was actually winning. I was like hitting these sales targets. I was on the phone, I was speaking 100 miles an hour, I was making thousands of phone calls and it was, you know, and I was working long hours and I actually, to the point where I won an all expenses trip, paid holiday to Argentina through work, through the sales. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Thanks, math, no jokes. [00:07:53] Speaker C: I mean, to be honest, you probably could have paid off that holiday without, you know, putting that money aside. [00:07:57] Speaker A: So. [00:07:58] Speaker B: But still, I mean. Yeah, so that's obviously part of the peak. Right, so that's you peaking at that moment, at the high point of the high. [00:08:08] Speaker D: That's it. [00:08:08] Speaker A: So it started off good. Got good with problems. [00:08:11] Speaker D: Yes. [00:08:12] Speaker A: And then the problems. So what happened? In around 2000 and I think 2015, we had a bit of a market crash in the mining industry. Which affected. Oh yeah, which affected. I think it was a bit earlier than that. I'm not too sure exactly. That affected recruitment and I was made redundant, but I was still using a lot of, lot of meth. And so my mental health just absolutely deteriorated and I started thinking it was me, you know, I was not enough, I'm not good enough. All the, all the things that come with that. And I went to a wedding and I got really, really drunk and at the end of the wedding, my wife went home, I jumped in a cab and I went to a dealer's house and was that drunk. He didn't have anything to smoke the meth with. And he injected me for the first time. [00:09:02] Speaker B: Oh, really? [00:09:03] Speaker A: And for me, I had this mental, I suppose, a value that I would never do that it was never, I was never going to cross that line into, into interview, you know, using drugs intravenously. [00:09:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:09:17] Speaker A: And I did. And I bashed myself mentally. [00:09:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:09:20] Speaker A: It was for a long time. I called me all the names, I said, you're, you're no good, you're nothing, you know. And I spiraled into this deep dark depression, close to psychosis, to suicidal. [00:09:31] Speaker D: Yeah, right. [00:09:31] Speaker A: But continued doing it. [00:09:33] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:09:34] Speaker B: At the same time, were you still using intravenously? [00:09:37] Speaker A: Intravenously. [00:09:37] Speaker B: So you just graduated to that? [00:09:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So straight away from him doing it to me, three days later I was at the chemist, buying it myself and trying to do it myself and absolutely destroying my arms. Didn't know what I was doing, but figured it out. [00:09:51] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:09:51] Speaker A: And that's when the slippery slope of, yeah, meth addiction really took over. It really took over. It took everything from me in. I was lying to my partner, obviously, around that. I was lying to everyone around what was going on. I wasn't working. I. It was like, you know, the funnel, an oil funnel. It was like I was just slipping around and I just couldn't, couldn't grasp on. It was like just sliding, sliding Down. I just couldn't have any, any grip or any control over what was going on. And over time I started, because I was using so much, I started doing crime. So I started actually doing fraud. So credit card fraud and then lying to everyone and thinking I was getting away with it. For a while. You know, I had this naive thinking that I was better than the system, that I found all the loopholes and all this sort of stuff. [00:10:42] Speaker B: Plus you have one of those faces you wouldn't believe. [00:10:44] Speaker D: You. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Well, no, I didn't have this face. Then you wouldn't recognize me. You know, back then. Saw a picture of me back then, you wouldn't recognize the man I am today. So I think you might have seen on my Facebook the seven years post. And yeah, it's not me on there. So. So that led to me again, mental health again further and further deteriorating to the point of drug induced psychosis. I was so paranoid that people were coming to get me, that the police were coming to get me, that the, to the point that the PowerPoints were speaking to me saying they're coming to get you. It was like, it was a very, very scary scary. [00:11:22] Speaker B: That would have been so scary. Like, like, I mean people laugh at things like that, but to live in that moment. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:28] Speaker B: And have that belief, it would be sheer terror. [00:11:30] Speaker A: I locked myself in my garage for two or three weeks and I turned the locks inside out so even people in the house couldn't get into the garage to get to me because I was so frightened. Living in this world of psychosis. [00:11:41] Speaker D: Yeah, right. [00:11:41] Speaker C: And what you were still using that whole time? [00:11:43] Speaker A: Still using. Still using a lot. Like I, I just couldn't stop. It was just had taken over. The obsession was so strong and I just didn't see it as the problem. It wasn't the problem. Everything else was the problem. It was the solution to my problem. So I just kept using and using and using to the point. I did get raided. So I got raided. Police came, I got charged for fraud. I had 18 months between being charged and actually going to prison. And in the 18 months I lost everything. So I was, I lost my wife, I lost my children. I was homeless. I was living in a car for a while, living down the beach. I had nothing and still trying to use, still doing stupid things to use. Like still doing criminal behavior, criminal activity to use. And like to a point. And again, a really low point in my life was I blamed everyone else. It was everyone else's fault. My whole family, I felt like they had abandoned me. They hadn't they just didn't know what to do with me. They had no idea what was going on in my life. So that was just like, he's so troubled, we just don't know. And I was angry all the time. So every time they would try to help me, I'd yell and scream and just be aggressive towards them. So they ended up blocking me out of their lives. And I remember one time, you know, when I went, told my dad, you know, my dad pretty level headed down to earth, sort of Uncle Gary, Uncle Gaz. [00:13:10] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:13:12] Speaker A: You know, and it sticks with me. He said to me, look, Hayden, I love you, but I don't like you. And I was like, that really smacked me around, you know, like, okay, yeah, he loves me, but my family doesn't like me who I am anymore. [00:13:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:13:25] Speaker A: One evening I broke into my older brother's home, took some of his stuff and sold it for meth. And he was away on holidays. And like, I wasn't a good criminal, I'm not a smart criminal, you know, and he had cameras. The guy next door heard me break in. He had me on camera, you know, and then, you know, a few days later he came to my house and I was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, mate, you know. Yes, I did it, I did it, I'm sorry, you know, again, all your fault. You abandoned me, you've left me here, you made me do this. And he said to me one thing that's always stuck with me and I think it was I didn't really take it in at the time, but, you know, it's, it's something that's, it turned my life around. He said, I don't want you effing sorry, mate. I don't want you effing sorry. What I want you to do is be the best effing comeback story that's ever lived. And like, I still get teary. [00:14:24] Speaker B: I got goosebumps from that, you know. [00:14:26] Speaker A: And I still, yeah, and I still get, you know. Yeah, it gives me goosebumps today. [00:14:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:14:30] Speaker A: And yeah, I didn't take, I, I heard it but I wasn't listening. [00:14:36] Speaker B: But it didn't sink in at that moment. So you were still in defense mode. [00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I was still in victim, victim mode. It was everyone else's fault. So then I was, went to court, I got two years prison sentence. Yeah, Nine months of that prison sentence. I was still wanting to use. Nine months, nine months in, I was still white knuckling it. I was still saying that I'm going to Beat the system that I'm going to get out of prison, I'm going to go down the hill and before I go to my, you know, to my parole hearing, my parole corrections officer, I'm going to use and I'll be able to do, you know, urine test four days out and, you know, all. [00:15:13] Speaker B: These insane equations and stuff. [00:15:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:15:17] Speaker C: So almost like withdrawals from. [00:15:19] Speaker B: But he was pre planning his already using when he was released. That's how much the addiction had taken hold. [00:15:26] Speaker A: The withdrawals in prison were. Were terrible. Like, I was so frightened of what prison was. I had no idea there was the unknown of prison. I was scared of if I would ask people for drugs, what would happen to me because there was no way I could pay. I'd had nothing. You go into prison, you strip bare, you come in, you know, you get some green tracky pants and a green T shirt and that's it, that's all you have. And you sort of build up your possessions over time. [00:15:55] Speaker B: You wouldn't have had a friendship circle of any sort of. Any people in prison either. [00:15:59] Speaker A: Knew no one, not a soul. I had no idea what to expect. I had. I was just. It was completely foreign to me. [00:16:07] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:16:08] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, it was terrible. [00:16:10] Speaker B: For the first seven months. [00:16:11] Speaker A: Yeah, for the first nine months I was just white knuckling, still thinking I need to use, still obsessed with the thinking of using, still like just going how great using is. [00:16:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:16:20] Speaker A: In prison. And it wasn't until when you're in prison, you do build up a friendship. Friend groups. I was playing cards with people and people knew you were swapping cans of Coke and stuff like that as currency. [00:16:32] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:16:34] Speaker B: Noodles and stuff like that, cigarettes on. [00:16:35] Speaker A: The table, noodles and Oreos for haircuts and all sorts of things. So, yeah. And one of the blokes, he went out on parole and he was gone for probably a month and then all of a sudden knocked on the window and of my. My cell and he was back. And like, you get into prison and you with meth, you lose a lot of weight, you're very gaunt, you're very skinny. You, you build all that, back up, back up, you're eating well. He come back again, completely gone. Like he'd been absolutely on a bender for the whole time that he'd been out. [00:17:06] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:17:07] Speaker A: And it wasn't until I saw that, and it happened a couple of times. It wasn't until I saw that I thought, wow, that's going to be me. Yeah, I'm going to be. I'm going to go out and parole. I'm going to use. [00:17:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:17:19] Speaker A: I'm going to end up back here. And over this time, my. My wife, we were separated. We've been separated for about three years prior. In the midst of all this, she was bringing my kids to come and see me and every second week. And we were starting to build something back. There was something starting to happen between us, but there was never. I'd hurt her so much. I'd done so much damage to our relationship, broken the trust, but there was some. That's still connection. [00:17:49] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:17:51] Speaker B: So obviously her reason for separating was because she couldn't love you in that moment because you couldn't love yourself. [00:17:57] Speaker A: She loved me. [00:17:58] Speaker B: She loved you, obviously, but had to love you from afar because everything was. You were hurting everyone. [00:18:04] Speaker A: I was hurting everyone. But it's like. It turns out that the drugs are the most important person and she's the side girlfriend. [00:18:13] Speaker D: Yes. [00:18:14] Speaker B: No, I've actually made that point a few times. It is. [00:18:16] Speaker A: It is. [00:18:17] Speaker B: It's like you're the second option and they're cheating. They're cheating on the drugs with you. I've never thought about it like that, honestly. That's how I put it when I was with someone who was. [00:18:28] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:18:28] Speaker B: Who I found to be an addict. [00:18:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. It's the way it is. Like the relationship. The relationship with the drugs is so much more important than any other relationship. The obsession, the. And I put her. I put my children, I put everyone second. [00:18:42] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:18:43] Speaker A: And she couldn't live like that. [00:18:44] Speaker B: No. [00:18:45] Speaker A: And she couldn't. She would be. So I wouldn't come home for days on end and I wouldn't call and it was frightening for her. [00:18:52] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:18:53] Speaker A: So. [00:18:55] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:18:55] Speaker A: And then over time, it just. I just gave up. I just was. I just gave up on that because that was too hard. That was stopping me doing what I wanted to do. [00:19:03] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:19:04] Speaker A: So I gave up. Yeah. So. [00:19:07] Speaker B: So her visiting you at the prison. [00:19:10] Speaker A: Started to feel like, I don't want to. I can't do this again. I can't come back. I come seeing my kids, I'm seeing her. I had other family come and visit. I didn't have any friends come and visit. You know, the drug friends that you think people that you're hanging around with, like, it's absolutely true. They just disappear. [00:19:27] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:19:27] Speaker A: I had a couple of high school mates come and visit me a couple of times. That was great. My brother came a couple of times. He told me that deadlifts would fix everything. If you know my brother. [00:19:39] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:19:42] Speaker A: I've had a Sore back and he said, do some deadlifts. So very healthy. [00:19:47] Speaker C: Always helps your back. [00:19:48] Speaker A: That's right, that's right. [00:19:49] Speaker B: So now you probably lift more than he does. [00:19:52] Speaker A: I don't know. He's pretty, he's a nuggety little fella. But yeah, it just, I was. Had that decision. So what I did prior to going into prison, I. I contacted a couple of rehabs. Not because I wanted to go to rehab, because I wanted a letter from them to say good behaviour or something. I was going to rehab. So I was like, oh well, we'll let you go to rehab instead of let you go to jail. That was my escape. And the judge just saw right through it and said there's no way. I'd been a rehab, I'd been in recovery, you call it recovery for four or five years. I'd done different private hospitals. I even went overseas. I went to a rehab in Thailand for a month. [00:20:34] Speaker D: Oh wow. [00:20:35] Speaker A: One of the best holidays I've ever had. Like I had, I had no responsibility. I was in Thailand, I had like, I had two massages a week. I had a personal trainer. [00:20:47] Speaker C: Oh my God, I never want to. [00:20:48] Speaker A: Leave all Thai food for a month and I didn't have to use drugs and alcohol for a week. And as soon as the day that I got back, the day that I got back, I contacted her, a friend and I said, come over and see me. And she said, I'm not letting you use. I said I've already used. So she brought drugs with her, you. [00:21:04] Speaker B: Know, but you hadn't. [00:21:05] Speaker A: I'd lied, you know, again, so I wasn't ready to. Yeah, so. So I'd been in recovery, I'd done some rehabs, I had, I'd had maximum of three months. I think I got up clean time in this, in this period of time. Yeah, before going. But the last eight months was a write off. So I contacted the rehabs and I contacted Tenacious House and they said, hey mate, we will let you in if you don't go to jail, you know, if the court get. Sort your court stuff out first. But yes, here's a letter for you saying you can come to us but you sort the court stuff out first. Yeah, and obviously I didn't. So nine months in, saw this bloke come back and I called immediately and said, how do I get in contact with Tenacious House? I. We went through the channels that we needed to go through within the prison. I had a phone call with them. I had never met this guy. His name's Mark Brown, he's one of my. He's a pastor from my church. I didn't know that at the time. He absolute mentor bloke that I absolutely look up to now today. Absolute legend. But he didn't even meet me. He said, you're in. [00:22:10] Speaker D: Yeah, Right. [00:22:10] Speaker A: So you get and paroled to us and we'll take you. And so I did. [00:22:16] Speaker B: So it was watching those other guys come back in that started to open your eyes a bit. Yeah, because when you go to jail, don't you do, like, rehab courses or, like, addiction courses or something? What do you do? [00:22:26] Speaker A: Well, that's the thing. They will go. If you want parole, you got to do these courses. So you just sit there. You get signed off on these courses. [00:22:33] Speaker C: I mean, you know what they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. [00:22:37] Speaker D: You gotta. [00:22:38] Speaker C: The person's gotta be ready and willing to give up and ready in themselves to do it. [00:22:43] Speaker B: One of those aha moments that you got, it's like I had a couple. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Of aha moments, you know, Like, I feel like, you know, from the spiritual side of things, I started reading around Buddhism. I started reading about Christianity. I started reading about all these meditations and all this sort of stuff. And like, in my drug use, I knew. I felt that there was a higher power of some sort because I'd done all these drugs that took me to these different worlds, you know, so. But when I was in prison, it was. When I. That guy come back, it felt like I had this slap in the face by something that said, no, this is it. [00:23:14] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:23:14] Speaker A: And really sort of changed my perspective on spirituality and on. On what I needed to do. So there was a couple of our home moments in that. [00:23:21] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:23:22] Speaker B: Oh, that's awesome. [00:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:23] Speaker B: And then. So from then, you got released. Paroled to. [00:23:27] Speaker A: I got paroled to tenacious house, and I was there for five months within the residential treatment program. And I was angry. You know, I'd just done 13 months in prison. I was like, why do I have to do this? You know, why do I have to do recovery? Why do I have to be in this place? And I was just like, I really didn't conform to it. And I had a couple of really stern talking to, like, Hayden, like, if you leave here, you're going back. [00:23:49] Speaker C: Like, even though you were the one that wanted to go on the program, you still. [00:23:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:53] Speaker C: You hated it while you were there. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Yeah, but I loved it at the same time. You know, I actually walked through. There was a guy called Dave who Was working there, and I walked through the gates of tenacious House, and I'd been a number for the last 13 months. So, you know, like, inmate Thorn had this weird number which I sort of remember if I can. [00:24:12] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Really wanted to. Yeah. And he came in and he just treated me like I was worth something. [00:24:18] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:24:19] Speaker A: He treated me like that I had some value that he didn't. It didn't matter where I'd come from. You were now here, and you hear, through the gates, and I'm going to show you a bit of love. Turns out he was an ex cougher. And I was like, wow. Like, how does this happen? Like, I didn't trust cops at all. [00:24:33] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:24:34] Speaker A: And, yeah, he showed me love for the first time. And from there, they did. They showed me that I was worth something. They showed me. They kept saying, you're a leader. You're a leader. You've got something, you know, we want you here. We want you here. And so I got my head down. I'm up. And I did five months of the program, and it was great. I got really fit, I got healthy, I enjoyed. I was actually looking at the other support workers going, hey, I think I can do this. I think I could probably do it better. You know, I think I can make some changes here. And I went. So they've got this program called continuing care. So it's a transitional program from residential rehab out in community. And there was no real supports within the program as such, but there was a place to live, so we had a place to go after rehab. So I did five months, and it was in year 2000. And I was. I went out in January, and Covid hit in. Oh, yeah, 2000. Thank you, covert. [00:25:35] Speaker B: I love the lockdown. Started on my birthday that night. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Well, covert actually saved my marriage. [00:25:40] Speaker D: Did it? [00:25:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. [00:25:42] Speaker B: I think that's the first I've ever heard doing anything. I've heard it made lots of babies. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:48] Speaker C: I heard it made a few divorces, too. [00:25:49] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So what happened was that the kids wouldn't let us go to school. We weren't allowed to work. I was living in Joondalup, my wife in. In Westminster, and she said, you're gonna have to come and help me. I've got to work. I've got to be online. The kids are gonna need homeschooling, all the stuff that we were doing then. And so I did. I come back, and I was obviously in separate spaces, and I was looking after the kids. And all of a sudden, she saw that I was no longer another kid for her to look after. Yeah, I was, I'd actually learned in rehab how to do my washing, how to do cooking. I don't do it anymore but back then I'd actually, I'd learned how to, how to do it, you know and I was. She didn't have to look after to me. Yeah, I was. Now it's so funny when you first go in, when you first. It's like you get stuck in a time lock of maturity when you're in addiction. Like I felt like I was a 15 year old kid up until I was 40. [00:26:45] Speaker B: I still feel like that I think that's my ADHD. [00:26:50] Speaker A: You know because I got clean. I was, I spent my 40th birthday in rehab so. And it's only been over the last, you know, five, six years that I feel like I've matured into a, a man, you know and responsibilities of a man and what I need to do as a man, as a family man, as a husband, as a, as a leader, as a, as a, as a dad. So yeah, we started a relationship. Started. She's like okay, well like this is the bloke I actually fell in love with. Yeah, he's back you know and he's like took a long time to rebuild that trust. It's there today. We have great conversations now. We're very open with each other. Like she knows where I am, everything. I don't really go anywh. Yeah now but yeah. So covered. Yes. They got married so after nearly four years of being separated. [00:27:39] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Moved back in together, started looking after kids, covered co parenting and our relationship took off and rekindled. And I remember being in an N A meeting as a. I'm a big advocate of the 12 step program as well and I remember her giving my wedding ring back and I went into their name meeting, said look at this guys like, you know this. I've got my. Finally got my wedding ring. [00:28:02] Speaker C: And they're a great support as well, aren't they Getting you through the journey, someone to talk to, people to befriend. [00:28:06] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. [00:28:07] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:28:08] Speaker A: So. So yeah that's. [00:28:09] Speaker B: And so now you work for them. Well don't you work for them? [00:28:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And then. So yeah. And what during that time I decided to study. I started Cert 4 in mental health. Yeah. And I did that off my own back and I was volunteering back at Tenacious House over a Monday and a Monday night I was doing, doing all their gardening work and doing overnight stays as a night Supervisor for volunteering. And then I finished. I did my work placement at Tenacious House and I finished work placement and they said, hey, we'd love you to come and work for us. So. [00:28:37] Speaker D: Nice. [00:28:37] Speaker A: So I did. [00:28:38] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:28:39] Speaker A: So I started working for a minute and then I just. I've just studied, studied, studied. I've continued on to the Diploma of Mental Health. I've done Community services, I've done peer work, I've done personal training. So I've just continued to study and sort of build up the knowledge. I haven't really stopped, so. [00:28:55] Speaker D: Yeah, right. [00:28:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:56] Speaker B: Yeah, that's cool. [00:28:57] Speaker A: Brings me where I'm today, I suppose. [00:28:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:28:59] Speaker A: That's my big story. [00:29:00] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:29:01] Speaker B: I mean, at least you're telling it like the real story, like. Because not a lot of people would fill in all those blanks, you know, I mean, it is interesting and honestly, hearing those words come out of your mouth is quite odd for me because I've never known that part of you. [00:29:15] Speaker A: No, no, you don't. No, it's. Look, I. This obviously, there's obviously parts of my story that I keep to myself. [00:29:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:29:24] Speaker A: There's like parts that are. The deep, dark stuff that I, you know, that not that I've buried but that I have forgiven myself for. And it's not for sort of public consumption. Safe for me to do that and it's safe for me to obviously share my story because it's real. [00:29:40] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:29:40] Speaker A: But, yeah, there's definitely areas that, you know, I keep. To keep to me. [00:29:44] Speaker C: Yeah, you want to keep in the. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Past and kind of can't let cousin Jenny know everything. So. [00:29:50] Speaker C: Yeah, no, all the skeletons under the bed. [00:29:54] Speaker B: I think we're going to learn everything by the end of the show. But I might actually cut to a song and we can have a breather and yeah, we'll do all the small things from Blink 182. [00:30:04] Speaker A: More music, better mental health only on IPL radio. [00:30:13] Speaker B: And you're back in the studio for all the things you're joining. Jen. Jen and Liz. [00:30:17] Speaker D: Hello. [00:30:17] Speaker B: Tuesday night and at IPL Radio and we're joined by Hayden Thorne. [00:30:21] Speaker A: Hello. [00:30:22] Speaker B: And we've been having some intense conversations about your recovery and your addiction. While the music was playing, I was talking to you about alcohol, actually. And I think this is a thing that, you know, people think about addictions and addicts and things like that. Alcohol's everywhere and I think that would be one of the hardest things to give up because it's socially acceptable. What are your thoughts on that one? [00:30:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it's A tough one, because it is everywhere. I think when we talk about if people can drink alcohol, they can drink alcohol. I think people in addiction who are in recovery, who have experienced addiction, I think it's a slippery slope for what I've seen. And I deal a lot with people who have relapsed. So my rebuild recovery business is built around guys who have been through treatment or who have relapsed and they're stuck and they haven't. They just don't know how to get out. And they. And residential rehab is maybe not an option for them. So. But the biggest cause of relapse, or there's a couple of causes of relapse, but the biggest cause of relapse is people think that alcohol is okay. Yeah, people think that, you know, I've got this now. I'm a certain amount of years up or clean or sober. I could probably have a beer. Yeah, and probably could. They probably can. They can probably drink for a little while. But what I. What I find, what I've seen is that the inhibitions drop. It becomes one, becomes two, becomes multiple. It comes daily, becomes then. Then that leads to. All of a sudden you're at a party, you've got a heap of people around you, you're drinking. Someone pulls out that bag of meth or pulls out that bag of pot. [00:32:13] Speaker C: Pulls out, lets down, your inhibitions are down already. [00:32:15] Speaker A: How can you make the decision? So, like, I speak to the guys so much about this, particularly in the rehab that I work in. You know, again, I've had these thoughts too, that, hey, I could probably have a beer. I could probably go to the pub and have a beer. But why would I chance it? No, why would I? Why would all the work that I've done, all the work that they've done, when they've been in rehab, they've been away from families, they've done such intensive counselling and work. Why Chancellor for a beer? So. And look, look, it is everywhere. So it's to build up and it's so easy to. If you're having a bad day or there's a bloke. [00:32:53] Speaker B: I just said that there's a bloke. [00:32:56] Speaker A: In the rehab at the moment. And it's funny because he says, he walks past the pub on his day out and he says, oh, look at those normal people. You know, I just want to be one of those normal people having a beer. And I said, what is not, you know, what's normal? Yeah, what is really normal? What are they dealing with? With, you know, Is this an everyday thing for them as well, that they haven't been able to deal with or. You know, I've had a lot of alcoholism in my life, so I just. Yeah, it's a scary, scary thing for me. It's always been something that I've seen people get. It's so sick. [00:33:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:33:31] Speaker A: And the poison that they're putting into the body. So, look, if you ask me about alcohol, I'll tell you, no, no, don't do it. I'm gonna say that. [00:33:39] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:33:40] Speaker B: Because you're dealing with addicts, and it doesn't mean that they're just addicted to one thing, does it? It's just if you're an addict, you're an addict. [00:33:47] Speaker D: Do they. [00:33:48] Speaker B: Do you think it's a disease? Do they consider it a disease or is it just. [00:33:52] Speaker C: I think they do, yeah, they do. [00:33:53] Speaker D: Consider it a disease. A disease, yeah. [00:33:55] Speaker C: Just addiction in general. [00:33:56] Speaker D: Yes. [00:33:56] Speaker C: Some people just have addictive personalities. [00:33:58] Speaker B: If you're an addict as such and you've done rehab, then technically you shouldn't be trying any substances. [00:34:04] Speaker A: Well, there is the disease model, so there's the disease model. That's pretty common, particularly in the 12 steps. There's a disease of addiction, which means, again, it's a mind disease. So you have a dis. Ease. Yes, so. So it's unease somewhere in your life that you need to use a substance to cope or to manage or to. But there's also in aa, so they call it the allergy of alcohol. So the allergy is. Once you have that one drink, it's like being allergic to someone. It just kicks in and you can't. Something. It kicks in and you just can't stop. So there's. There's different models. I. I believe that people in recovery, people who have had addiction, should stay away from all those things that give you really, really high dopamine hits. [00:34:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:34:54] Speaker A: Unhealthy dopamine hits, I'm talking about. So, like, in particular, for example, we can talk about gambling. [00:34:59] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:35:01] Speaker A: I had a gentleman who I worked really, really closely with. He was at the rehab for three, four months. One of these blokes just says, I. Three or four months clean, I've got this. I'm heading back out to work. Because work fixes everything. [00:35:13] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:35:13] Speaker A: It really doesn't. So, yeah, I'm going back out to work. I'm fine. I've got three months up. I'm in this bubble of joy because I'm feeling things for the first time in many, many. Most of my life. Calls me up and says, I've been at this casino every day for the last two weeks and I'm struggling. I've got these urges and cravings. I want to use, but I don't know why. Because of the flashy lights. Because of, you know, you're at the casino. [00:35:45] Speaker D: Yes, yes. [00:35:46] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, you know, and we talked. It's. And it's the same process as the excuses that come up with. Well, I've won some and I've lost some, and I've like. And, you know, the same. Trying to justify the behavior. And. And he's wondering why he needs this all of a sudden, needs this fix to fix how he's feeling. But it's also. He hasn't told anyone about this, the gambling, for two and a half weeks. You know, he's called me and he's finally let it out. The lies and the secrets make you really, really sick. Yeah, they make you really, really sick. And I've. One of my podcasts recently is on honesty and, you know, sitting there. [00:36:20] Speaker B: I think I saw that one. [00:36:21] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:36:22] Speaker A: Like, even vaping. And, you know, we talked about vaping here. [00:36:25] Speaker D: Yes. [00:36:26] Speaker B: There's my dirty little secret. [00:36:27] Speaker A: We got. We got rules in the rehab that you can't vape. Vape. You're not allowed to vape. You're not allowed to use anything that's addictive. Any substances. No cigarettes, no nothing. Like, you will give you some patches and you get a cold turkey. And nicotine is horrible to come off. Yeah, absolutely horrible. It's probably the only drug that's a stimulant antidepressant at the same time. [00:36:46] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:36:48] Speaker B: So I lasted 46 years without smoking. And then some reason a couple of months ago, I think, I don't know, someone had a vape and I was having a drink and I started vaping and I literally have vaped for like eight weeks. And I just said to myself, what am I doing? And it was just from stress. And I'm like, I don't need to do this. [00:37:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:07] Speaker B: But like, where did that come from? [00:37:08] Speaker A: What else do you do to cope with your stress? What's your stress relief? [00:37:13] Speaker B: Well, I've been doing different. Different trauma healing. Different. Different things. [00:37:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:37:21] Speaker B: I've been doing lots of regression therapy, so. But there's just. It just keeps piling up. [00:37:28] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's probably. Regression therapy is probably going to start doing that for you. [00:37:31] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:37:32] Speaker A: So. [00:37:33] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:33] Speaker A: So how do you cope, you know, like, you know, and the easiest thing. [00:37:36] Speaker B: Not with a vape. [00:37:37] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's the thing. The easiest thing is to numb with something. [00:37:41] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. [00:37:42] Speaker A: You know, so it's not uncommon. It's normal. [00:37:44] Speaker B: But it's weird to go 46 years and then just pick one up and then just say, oh, I like this. [00:37:48] Speaker A: Yeah, because you. [00:37:49] Speaker B: I don't think it was the nicotine. It was just the act of doing something. But, yeah, no, that was my little secret. [00:37:56] Speaker A: Yeah, but alcohol sucks, man. Yes, alcohol absolutely sucks. And I've seen so many people taken out from just having a beer, just. [00:38:05] Speaker B: Just so they slip back into there. So is that what you started doing at 14? Was it drinking or was it the marijuana first? [00:38:12] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:38:13] Speaker B: Was the marijuana first? [00:38:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it was what it was. And like. And look. And. G', day, dad. You know. [00:38:19] Speaker B: Hi, Uncle Gary. [00:38:20] Speaker D: Hello. [00:38:20] Speaker A: You know, I. I hit alcohol really hard. Like, I remember going to a party and having a green bottle of Jim Beam and drinking the whole lot and being dropped off at my dad's house with vomit all over me at the front door, telling him how much I love him, and he's unbuttoning this spewy shit. [00:38:43] Speaker C: You didn't try and give him a cuddle? [00:38:45] Speaker A: I did. I tried to give him a chisel. A cuddle. And, you know, and so again, it was that. It was the same sort of pattern of behavior. I was always the one that had to do the most. I had to be the winner. I had to do, you know, do it more than the rest. [00:38:57] Speaker C: Very competitive spirit. [00:38:58] Speaker A: I've been shocking for that. [00:39:01] Speaker C: So how's games night with the kids? [00:39:03] Speaker A: Don't put me on Super Mario Kart. That's for sure. They are not gonna win. [00:39:06] Speaker B: I'll race you. [00:39:07] Speaker D: I'll race you. Oh, yeah. [00:39:10] Speaker B: So we're talking about, like, everyone's. So addiction is across the board. It's your addictive behavior. So it covers gambling, it covers everything. [00:39:20] Speaker C: I'm working with so many things. It could be exercise even. It could be watching TV or gaming or your phone scrolling. Do scrolling. Yep, that's absolutely addiction. [00:39:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. Exercise, I think, is the. For me, exercise is the gateway drug to success. [00:39:37] Speaker C: It's a good form of an addiction. [00:39:39] Speaker A: It is. It's happens when you start becoming obsessed with it, when you start putting things in your legs for testosterone, steroids and things like that. And it becomes such an obsession that it turns into body dysmorphia. That's when things become a problem. But if you're going and training and discipline and you're natural and you're. This is my opinion only Sorry, guys on steroids out there. But you know, I just, I'm not all about that. And so. But I think you must train. I think that you must work your body, you must move your body, you must do something to keep, as a man, particularly to keep your testosterone levels up to a certain point to be able to be building something. Men are meant to build stuff. Men are meant to build businesses, bodies, but in a healthy way. So yeah, I think that exercise can become unhealthy if you're doing those things that become super obsessive and all you're thinking about, so it starts impacting your life. So it's not impacting relationships or starts impacting your work because all you're doing is thinking about exercising, all you're thinking about doing is getting to the gym. [00:40:41] Speaker B: So do you see people that don't exercise when they're doing their recovery and people that do, do you see more success with the ones that do? [00:40:49] Speaker A: Good question. I haven't really done any study on that, but I do believe that the blokes who have more routine and structure around physical, and there's that physical element in it will be more successful. [00:41:03] Speaker D: Right. [00:41:03] Speaker A: So I talked about it in the beginning. There's those four pillars of recovery for me and that's the physical, the mental, the emotional and the spiritual. [00:41:11] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:41:12] Speaker A: So for me, when I first got into recovery, all I was, particularly in the beginning, all I was worried about was the mental side of things. So I had drug adduced psychosis. [00:41:25] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:41:25] Speaker A: My. What actually led me to do my mental health studies was the impact that I had on my son. So at the time I had a 7 year old son and men not being in sons lives really impacts their behavior. So when I was not there, when he was not my priority, the drugs were my priority. His behaviour escalated the school to the point where they were saying, we think he might need to be tested for autism on the spectrum. And for me it was like I knew that maybe I didn't know for certain but I was like, I think it's because I'm not around and because he's, he's craving the relationship with that. So his anxiety, he had such anxiety. He wouldn't go out anywhere, he wouldn't even putting on jumpers to go places and to go to school. It was really, really difficult to get him to school. So when I got into recovery and I was like, hey, I really need to learn about this, I really need to learn about depression and anxiety because that's what I face, I face depression and anxiety. I haven't got any other diagnosis of. Larger diagnosis of schizophrenia or ADHD or any of those, or bipolar that I've worked with. But for me, it was the anxiety and depression. And so I was like, I need to focus on this. This is the main pillar I need to work on. So that's why I did my studies. My son had anxiety, I had anxiety. A lot of people around me had anxiety and depression and I was like, I need to focus on this. So I did my studies and that was the first area. Fitness didn't come along for a little while. Like I was still like I was. I, yeah. Hated fitness in the routine. We do boot camp twice a week out at Tenacious House there and James Clark is the boot camp. Do you boot camp trainer out there. He would smash us. Absolutely. And like, for me, I love James. If you're listening, mate, you're absolutely legend. Absolute legend. But. [00:43:14] Speaker B: But there it is. [00:43:17] Speaker A: But I also feel in the beginning, when you first start training, you have to make it fun. [00:43:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:43:24] Speaker C: You can't make it a chore. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Yeah. If you smash the body too much, and he's going to absolutely hate me for saying this, but if you smash the body too much and you make it unenjoyable, people aren't going to do it. People are going to do it. [00:43:35] Speaker C: I totally agree. [00:43:36] Speaker A: So for me, when I run my boot camps, I have a laugh. I make sure it's enjoyable. I really emphasize how well the guys are doing, encourage them, tell them how good they are, how much they loved in this. So, yes, exercise come along with me. But I also, the emotional side, I just couldn't cope with things. [00:43:55] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:43:55] Speaker A: And my emotional regulation. I was an angry little man. You know, everything was angry. And, you know, my family will attest to this. I was just an angry person all the time. So I had to learn new coping strategies. And then the spirituality side of things come slowly. Like, I always believed it was a higher power because of some of the substances that I'd used along the way. I'd seen things and so I thought there was this high power. [00:44:17] Speaker B: Do you believe you still had that experience, that it was spiritual or do you believe it was drugs? [00:44:21] Speaker D: Drugs? [00:44:22] Speaker A: No. No. [00:44:23] Speaker B: I feel you still believe it was. [00:44:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:44:25] Speaker B: Because I've spoken to a lot of people that have done drugs. [00:44:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:28] Speaker B: And have had those moments and those spiritual experiences and it does sound real. [00:44:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:34] Speaker B: Even though it was probably the drugs that gave you that doorway to that. [00:44:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Was supposed to happen. [00:44:39] Speaker A: Look, I think they, you know, I. It's really hard for me. I'm at a crossroads with my spirituality at the moment. We talked a little bit of this in the break, but. [00:44:51] Speaker B: I've got the squeaky chair. [00:44:52] Speaker C: You always get a chair. [00:44:53] Speaker A: What are you talking about? [00:44:54] Speaker C: I've been laughing since the start of the show. [00:44:56] Speaker B: I hate it. Sorry. Okay, so, yeah, so we're talking. Yeah, we, we started having a conversation. I'm like, save it for the radio. So, yeah, we're talking about your faith. [00:45:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:06] Speaker B: So with your tenacious house, is it? [00:45:09] Speaker A: Yep. [00:45:10] Speaker B: They have a Christian belief. [00:45:12] Speaker A: No, they. Yes. Well, they, they're not a faith based program. So we're not a. We're not Bible study or anything like that within the program. We're an evidence based program, but they were founded by the church, Global Heart Church in Joondalup. Shout out to them as well. So when you're in the program, you go twice a week, you go to church on a Friday night and a Sunday and you really get. [00:45:36] Speaker B: So can I ask, doing the program and then having faith or religion introduced into that, did that help you through the program? Because I've heard it really does. [00:45:45] Speaker A: It does. [00:45:45] Speaker B: Putting your. That emphasis on something higher than yourself will make you think more addiction is. [00:45:52] Speaker A: Such a self centered, selfish episode. [00:45:56] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Everything is self in self, self, self. Yeah, it's your, you know, you're. You think the universe is actually the earth is moving underneath your feet rather than that it's moving on its own axis, you know, like it revolves around you and nothing else. So. Yeah. Spirituality plays a huge part in recovery. I think it really, really does. And, and it's something that people find really, really difficult to understand because it's thrown so many different concepts. [00:46:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:46:20] Speaker A: And they want to understand it. And I think that's the worst thing you can do is try to understand it. [00:46:25] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:46:26] Speaker B: So you explored different religions, didn't you? You said Buddhism and in, in prison. [00:46:31] Speaker A: I did, Yeah. I started just reading everything because I was, you know, even for a while I was reading about astral travel because I was like, how do I get out of here? [00:46:39] Speaker D: Oh, really? [00:46:40] Speaker B: Have you done that before? [00:46:41] Speaker A: No, I tried. [00:46:42] Speaker D: I didn't work. [00:46:43] Speaker A: I was like, maybe I can astral travel and see what's going on outside. [00:46:46] Speaker B: You know, like, so get on some mess. [00:46:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. The astral world. Yeah. But yeah, look, I was put into Christianity and I think what people really love around Christianity when they first get into recovery is you're forgiven. [00:47:03] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:47:05] Speaker A: You finally. [00:47:05] Speaker B: Everything's about love and acceptance. [00:47:07] Speaker D: Maybe. [00:47:08] Speaker A: Yeah. You're finally told that there's a savior who has died for your sins, and whatever you do, if you confess him as your Lord and Savior, your sins have been forgiven. And that's great for someone who've done some horrible things. [00:47:25] Speaker D: Yeah, I never thought about it like that. [00:47:27] Speaker A: So you actually hand over your sins to a higher power in Jesus Christ. [00:47:32] Speaker D: Right. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Which I think is fantastic. I think is great. I think I love Jesus Christ. My crossroads is sometimes with the institution of church, but in terms of the community and the connection. And you go into a place and they're all smiling, you know, they're not drinking, they're having a coffee, they're eating some chockies, eating some cake, they're talking to each other, they're praying for each other, and they're all happy as Larry. Like, where am I? [00:48:03] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:48:04] Speaker B: You know, it's almost foreign when you haven't been around that kind of environment. [00:48:07] Speaker C: And I think a lot of people have stereotypes about churches and things like that as well. I know. Talk to quite a few people that just hear a lot of things, Christianity and. And it obviously pushes them away. [00:48:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:48:20] Speaker B: I used to go to church with my cousin Troy when I was living and living with him, and I actually enjoyed it. So, yeah, it was really good. [00:48:28] Speaker A: I love. I love. I love the church. Sometimes the message for me is a little bit off for me. No one's ever left the church because of the teachings of Jesus. They've left because of the institution. [00:48:43] Speaker C: There's so many ways that a Bible can be interpreted, isn't there? [00:48:46] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:48:46] Speaker B: But I think it. Fundamentals. [00:48:48] Speaker D: If you. [00:48:49] Speaker B: You got your faith and you're there for that reason, then that's exactly what I. But when it becomes like, you know, the money side of things or. I don't know. I've seen different things happen. And so we did go to different churches. Troy would often change church, and so he had different ideas about things. That was a whole different. Another reason behind that. But, yeah, no, I think fundamentally, if you have the faith and then it's going to bring you that sense of community and that sense of acceptance, which is big for someone who's going through that. [00:49:20] Speaker A: God rest his soul. We've missed him. [00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah, we do. [00:49:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:49:22] Speaker B: Beautiful, Troy. [00:49:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it plays when you're in addiction and when you're experiencing addiction, you've got this void within your chest. There's something missing. There's something you're trying to fill. [00:49:35] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:49:35] Speaker A: With the substance, actually. [00:49:36] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:49:36] Speaker B: That's what I've had a few people message in as You've been talking and they're saying they're trying to fill a void. [00:49:41] Speaker A: They are, yeah. [00:49:41] Speaker B: And they're actually asking. Actually, I'll do some questions now. So is it. Do you think that going through rehabilitation is learning different ways of filling that void or figuring out what the void is? How do you interpret that? [00:49:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it definitely is. And I think that's what we're all trying to do. We're all trying to fill this and fill this level of love and acceptance. And I think for so long. And the world teaches us that we're not enough, that we're not good enough and we have to step up to this certain level of standard and that that just depletes that void in yourself. So learning to love yourself again and learning to, you know that you are human and that you do make mistakes through spirituality, whether it be fitness or through emotional. Whether it just be connection, I think, yeah, that's what you're looking for, is to fill that void. And I definitely. And it gets lost sometimes. And even if I turn back to the teachings of Jesus, which I don't a lot, he says the kingdom of heaven is within you. So if you've lost that kingdom of heaven within you, that void within you, you're going to be searching for it somewhere else, right? Yeah. [00:50:47] Speaker B: And then chances are you'll pick up something unhealthy. And if you're approaching. [00:50:52] Speaker C: It's a big void. That one. [00:50:53] Speaker D: Yes. [00:50:54] Speaker B: So can I ask you, did you have like a turning point when you realized that recovery wasn't just about stopping the substance, but rebuilding a whole new life? Now, when I've gone through your page, I've seen that in. It's more about a complete lifestyle. Lifestyle overhaul kind of thing, and creating routine and structure with healthy. [00:51:18] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:51:18] Speaker B: And so you're replacing all those things. And so it's more about rebuilding a whole new life, isn't it? [00:51:24] Speaker A: It is, yeah. It's. You build this identity as the addict. [00:51:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:51:30] Speaker A: Your identity is built around that. And the friendships and the groups you hang around with are all in addiction. So that's the lifestyle that you fill in. So if you haven't. If you're not replacing that lifestyle with something positive and rebuilding in that way. Yeah. You're more than likely going to slip back in. So some of the stuff that I look at and I think the turning point for me, it took a long time. I'm saying now that I've got this magical solution, I really don't. Because it's different for everyone. But if I don't have a mission if I don't have a purpose. And I think as well, I'm going to shift back to that spirituality thing. Like, sometimes it's spirituality or is this outside? But for me, it's this purpose. [00:52:10] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:52:11] Speaker A: So I've turned my mess into a message. I don't. Have you heard that before? But, you know, that's a good one. [00:52:17] Speaker D: I like that. [00:52:18] Speaker A: You know, so all the stuff that I've experienced that, you know, if my higher power or God has put me through over the years, everything that I've been through, everything I've done, I don't. I'm grateful for. [00:52:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:52:30] Speaker B: Like you up to that point, now. [00:52:33] Speaker A: I'm here, and now I can help other men and I can walk alongside and say, hey, yeah, me too. So I've got this mission, I've got this purpose. And I think, like, again, something maybe, you know, spirituality or Christianity gives you that you're here for a reason. [00:52:44] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:52:44] Speaker A: And for a long time, I felt like I had no. [00:52:46] Speaker B: So you've got it in different ways. [00:52:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:47] Speaker B: You've got this purpose, this sense of purpose. [00:52:50] Speaker A: And I think that was the turning point for me. It was like, oh, wow. Actually, this wasn't for no reason. [00:52:55] Speaker D: No. [00:52:56] Speaker A: Why I had to experience, why I had to go to prison, why I had to go to all these. Through these different homelessness, or because then I can walk along that side, other men and say, yeah, hey, I know. [00:53:05] Speaker B: And then you don't have to feel the shame about those experiences because they shaped you. [00:53:09] Speaker A: I don't feel this. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Look, a lot of people do. [00:53:11] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:53:12] Speaker B: And maybe initially you would have. [00:53:14] Speaker A: Yeah, initially. [00:53:14] Speaker B: It took a long time before you had those moments. [00:53:17] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:53:18] Speaker A: Again, shame comes down to that I am not enough. I'm not good. I'm a bad person. When deep down, we're not where we are. We're loving people, we're spiritual people. We are people who just need each other. Like, I try to lead with love first. I try to show every man that I work with that they are worth more than they think they are. So that's like a huge. It's just how I. I don't know. Like, I've shifted that. I think we. We're all one. We're all here for this human experience together. And if we're not doing it together, we're lost. So I think I've gone off track a little bit there. [00:53:53] Speaker B: That's all right. No, I think it's all part of it, part of the rebuild. I think all these Elements are part of the rebuild of, of your life. And so you're talking about the key elements as well? Yeah, about the rebuilding of the restructure, is that right? [00:54:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:08] Speaker B: What were they you mentioned? [00:54:10] Speaker A: Yeah, the four pillars that I've talked about. Like they're the like the legend legs on my chair. If one of those crack like I'm going to fall over. Yeah, the four elements that I've talked about. But you know, like for me I set up the way I set up my guys is this health, growth and recovery. So each week that I work with these guys I have a look at these three areas and we set goals. So if we don't have a mission or we don't have our week planned out, we're going to drift. And a bloke who drifts is dangerous. They can go anywhere, go in any direction. It doesn't, you know, they've got nowhere to go. They wake up in the morning and they've got no plan, they've got nothing to do. They're going to scroll for a bit. What might I do today? And you know, and they're going to go off track. So I'm really, I do it myself, I structure my weekend. I've got three goals within my growth and that could be with my health. So that could be not just only my physical health, it's my mental health as well. So what do I do in sit in silence? I do every single morning I do something called grace. I give myself some grace, which is I do some gratitude. So I'd give three gratitudes, something I'm grateful for which is if you can't think of anything you're grateful for, just start with you're not on fire and work backwards. [00:55:15] Speaker D: That's a good one. [00:55:17] Speaker A: Then I do a reading. So I'll read a couple of pages of some sort of. Either I don't read a lot of fiction, it's all self help stuff or it's all just for today or recovery based. So I'll do a reading, I'll do an affirmation like I'm okay, you know, I've got this, I am good enough. I'll exercise and then I'll challenge myself for the day. So the challenge today is I ate no choccy, I didn't do it. [00:55:41] Speaker C: I was gonna say that was a rough challenge. [00:55:44] Speaker A: I didn't get through it. We had someone open the cream biscuits today and I just got stuck in the cream biscuits. [00:55:49] Speaker C: It doesn't count if it's not chocolate bar. It's okay. [00:55:51] Speaker A: So, yeah, so it's really, for me, it's really around discipline and structure. I can say that I'm going to do all these things and if I. And if I don't, if I do them when no one's looking, that's the integrity I'm building. [00:56:05] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. [00:56:05] Speaker A: And that's what I want to show my boy. I want to show that I, you know, I set myself a target, I set myself a goal, I set myself something to do. And it doesn't have to be massive, it's just to be a little bit each day. And I live by that integrity. Like I live and I try to do what I say because if I start lying to myself, I'm going to drift back into old patterns of behavior. [00:56:21] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:56:21] Speaker A: This is before, like, dishonesty is a huge, huge, huge warning side red flag that we're slipping back into old patterns of behavior and relapses in it, you know, possible. So. Yeah, and the growth, you know, it could be financial growth, it could be just reading a book, it could be doing a course. It could be any sort of growth. It could be just something that challenges you mentally, intellectually, in terms of growth. And then recovery. I built that around. Again, spirituality, it might be the meetings that you're going to, it might be calling a sponsor or helping another brother out in recovery. It could be relationships. Who. Who in your life do you need to build trust with again? [00:57:01] Speaker D: Yeah, who do you. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Who can you reach out to? Who can you, like your mum or your dad that supported you all the way along and now they're not too well? Can you. [00:57:08] Speaker B: Can I ask you something about that? With your addiction and then you go into jail, how did you go about rebuilding those relationships, like with your parents and hard conversations? [00:57:25] Speaker A: Dad, particularly, he. In the beginning, he came to. He came to the rehab and him and my stepmom, Debbie. [00:57:39] Speaker D: Debbie. [00:57:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:40] Speaker B: SHOUT out. [00:57:40] Speaker A: Hello. [00:57:41] Speaker D: Hello. [00:57:41] Speaker A: Legends, love them. They came to the rehab and sat down and talked to me. So hard for me to say this. In addiction. My old man had a stroke. [00:57:53] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. [00:57:54] Speaker A: And my, my main priority was drugs and alcohol. You know, there wasn't him. [00:58:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:58:01] Speaker A: You know, and he told me this. He, you know, and it was like an eye opener for me. It was like, hey, you, like, didn't even come see me in hospital. I was like, yeah, I was cooked. [00:58:11] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:58:11] Speaker A: You know, like, I was dealing with my own. I couldn't deal with your too. And. But like, for him, it was like, you're my son, you know, like, so, like, over the Time. How I built that is by showing up, by just by showing up and just keep, just keep showing up, keep reaching out, keep doing the things I'm saying that I'm going to do. [00:58:28] Speaker C: I'm proving that you're not that person anymore. [00:58:30] Speaker A: And there's no other way to rebuild trust by but by action. [00:58:35] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:58:35] Speaker A: You know how many times I said sorry? [00:58:37] Speaker C: I imagine a lot. [00:58:39] Speaker B: A lot. [00:58:39] Speaker A: I apologize so many times over and oh, I'm sorry. I won't do that again. Yeah, I had to show up, I had to show integrity. I had to show the man that I was building step by step. And it didn't happen overnight. [00:58:51] Speaker D: No. [00:58:52] Speaker A: Like it just, it doesn't happen. [00:58:53] Speaker B: Is that something you cover in your rehab course? [00:58:57] Speaker A: Yeah, in mine I do, yeah. Particularly I focus because I do one on one coaching. I do some group coaching, but one on one coaching. So it's individualized. So I'll have a look at what relationships. I'm working with a young fellow at the moment who has been in a relationship, had four years clean and sober up and became again another killer. Killer for relapse is complacency. Became complacent that he had it and he's in a relationship for the last two years with this, with this, with this woman and relapsed twice in the last six months. And so she's beautiful enough to stay with him and give him the opportunity to because she knows who he is deep down. But yeah, we do this one on one stuff like we do from my coach has given me like we do weekly, you know, connection check ins. It's something that I will check in with my wife Amelia every week and say, hey, what do we schedule this week together? Is it, where's that connection time? What do we need to do for the kids? What am I grateful for? For you this week? What are you grateful for? What you know, where's our energy level this week? Yeah, how can I lift your energy level this week? Yeah, you know, so, yeah, like it's. [01:00:06] Speaker B: Something that we incorporate, by the way. [01:00:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's something we incorporate and I try to incorporate with the guys and you know, I have a coach who's taught me these things as well. So Rich James Jackson, you're an absolute champion. I love you. Yeah. And so he's taught me these things to be able to pass on to my guys as well. So yeah, that's how we learn, that's how we grow, you know, sharing our knowledge. [01:00:28] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:00:28] Speaker B: And so you, you do speak a lot about the brotherhood and the mentorship. Yeah, yeah. And so why do you think connection with other men is so critical and sometimes more than therapy, do you think? [01:00:40] Speaker A: I think. No, I don't think it's more. I think it's a. It must. Has to be combined. I can speak a little bit about what I do at Next Step as well. I work, I go to Next Step once a week, once a fortnight. [01:00:55] Speaker C: I've heard of that. What's Next Step? [01:00:56] Speaker A: It's a detox centre in East Perth. It's for people who need to get the substance out of their body who are critically ill or they're going into a facility and they need to have some sort of reprieve before they go. Counseling and therapy should go hand in hand in everything you do. It should be part of it. And I think that's what I have created and built for myself. I have so many different touch points in my life that I. If one was to fall over, I've got something else to lean on. And brotherhood. I do, I do a men's na. Like I. Sorry, ladies, but I don't get women. [01:01:31] Speaker C: It's okay. [01:01:31] Speaker B: We don't get men. [01:01:35] Speaker C: We didn't turn that one either. [01:01:38] Speaker A: I just don't, you know, like I. I have some really, really close women friends, but in terms of understanding women, I've got a daughter as well, you. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Know, good luck with her. [01:01:49] Speaker C: Wait until she's 14. How old is she now? [01:01:52] Speaker A: She's 10. Nearly there. [01:01:54] Speaker C: You're in for a few years and a little bit. [01:01:57] Speaker A: She is amazing. She's an amazing human being. She got such a beautiful personality and just so big and out there. Like, I think she's got going to do amazing things in this world, hopefully. [01:02:07] Speaker D: Yep. [01:02:08] Speaker A: And why I think men brotherhood is so important is because we can change generations. [01:02:13] Speaker D: Right. [01:02:14] Speaker A: I think men together, men leading families, men leading communities and men being able to support each other in that is what will change the generations and bring generations forward. So if we can teach and we can be present for our men, for our boys and show them what real. What it means to be. What real masculinity looks like. Not toxic masculinity, what real masculinity looks like through love and compassion and empathy and walking alongside. [01:02:39] Speaker B: Because that wasn't the way the old ways. That was definitely not the way of the man, you know. [01:02:44] Speaker C: No, it was. You had to be very, very masculine. [01:02:46] Speaker B: And never show your feelings. [01:02:48] Speaker C: If you cried, that was it. [01:02:50] Speaker D: It's not allowed. [01:02:51] Speaker A: That's still in today. That's still today's Society, we have blokes, particularly the older blokes, who won't cry, who won't open up, who won't don't break down. And you need to do this. You need to show. [01:03:00] Speaker C: Well, I really hope and like to think that we're getting away from. [01:03:03] Speaker B: Rebuild yourself. [01:03:04] Speaker A: It is slowly. It is slowly happening, but, like, there's still a level of masculinity or. Yeah. That we need to uphold within our. If we can teach our kids, particularly our men, how to treat women. [01:03:17] Speaker D: Yep. [01:03:18] Speaker A: You know, we're not going to have all the deaths of women in violence in the world that we have at the moment. So I think. I think doing that together and sharing that knowledge and wisdom through brotherhood is why I think brotherhood is so important. [01:03:30] Speaker D: Yep. Okay. [01:03:32] Speaker B: And is that why you've chosen to just deal with men? Because you don't get women so much? [01:03:38] Speaker A: I even got. I got called misogynistic on my page recently. [01:03:41] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:42] Speaker B: Because there's always gonna be haters. [01:03:43] Speaker A: There is always gonna be haters. But it's what I know. Like, I'm a lived experience coach. I'm a lived experience person who wants to share his knowledge with others. And I haven't worked with women. I haven't lived a life with women. I haven't experienced what women. They're going to experience stuff a lot different to what I have. And I want to share my experience and my knowledge with other men to help them grow. [01:04:05] Speaker B: Because that's why you're coming from a place of knowledge and experience. [01:04:07] Speaker A: And I'm pretty sure there's lots of women out there that should be helping women as well. [01:04:10] Speaker B: Yeah, no, they should. They should be lifting each other up and are. [01:04:13] Speaker D: Yeah, they are. Yeah. Yeah. [01:04:14] Speaker B: So, I mean, even, like, going to jail, obviously, jail is men's, but is your rehab. Was that men's as well? [01:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:22] Speaker B: So, you know, you do your jail with men and then you do your rehab with men. It's only. [01:04:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:28] Speaker B: I mean, it seems to be understandable that your focus would be around men. [01:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I think. [01:04:33] Speaker B: Because that's where your skills and your knowledge come from. It is your experience. [01:04:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. I'll say. Yes. [01:04:39] Speaker D: Okay. [01:04:40] Speaker B: I don't know. [01:04:42] Speaker A: I think being in a rehab, too, with just men, there's no. There's no distractions. [01:04:46] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:04:47] Speaker A: So there's no. [01:04:48] Speaker B: I have heard about a few of those. [01:04:50] Speaker A: Yeah, there's, you know, there's. And there is, you know, intersex or multisex, whatever, you know, rehabs out there. And they work. They're fantastic. Look, shout out to every single rehab in that is helping people recover from drugs and alcohol. I love every single one of you. You know, they do them so differently. [01:05:09] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:05:09] Speaker A: But being in a men's rehab, working with men and working with. On men's issues and talking with men is something that's really, really close to my heart. I would want to pretend I probably could work with women, and I would love to in the future. And I. And if any women have questions around their husbands or partners or, you know, what they're noticing, I'd love to have a chat with you. [01:05:30] Speaker B: So I was talking to you when the song was on, and I was talking about how to spot the signs of someone relapsing. [01:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:37] Speaker B: So say. Or, you know, spot the signs of possibly your partner or a loved one that may be hiding addiction. [01:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:45] Speaker D: Do you. [01:05:46] Speaker B: Have you had that? You had some of that knowledge to share with us? [01:05:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I think. I think the first sign is that emotional distance. [01:05:54] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:05:55] Speaker A: So the mood swings. Like, one minute he's fine, the next minute he's cold, he's distant, he's snapping. You got to walk on eggshells. You're not sure exactly. Not going to have real conversations. And I think that's a red flag. Like, emotional inconsistency is usually the first sign that there's some sort of internal chaos. [01:06:11] Speaker B: You're describing my marriage breakdown right now. [01:06:14] Speaker C: You see your face over there? [01:06:15] Speaker A: Just. [01:06:16] Speaker B: I'm like, what? [01:06:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's one. I think the next part is the secrets. [01:06:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:06:23] Speaker A: And I've talked about lies and secrets will make you sick. But secret, the secretive behavior, if that creeps back in, like, suddenly, like, all of a sudden, he's guarding his phone. All of a sudden, the there's, you know, his location doesn't add up. Or he's, you know, he's saying that he's working late, but he's, you know, like, it just doesn't make sense. He's not tired, you know, like, that's a big sign with meth. If, like, you. You know, I'm really working later, but I'm. But he's up not. And he's not eating, you know. You know, hasn't eaten for two days. [01:06:49] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:06:49] Speaker A: That's a huge sign. That's meth. That's where it really becomes visible. [01:06:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:06:54] Speaker A: You know, so that's what you're looking for. If you start hearing things like, the excuses are, you don't trust me. I'm just under pressure, you know, stop overthinking everything. [01:07:02] Speaker B: Like the gaslighting I was just about. [01:07:05] Speaker D: Yeah, Yeah. Y. [01:07:06] Speaker A: So, yeah. Stops going to the gym. [01:07:10] Speaker D: Yeah. Yes. [01:07:11] Speaker A: You know, old patterns of behavior kicked in. Stop. You know, they stop checking in, they don't want to go to meetings, stop working on themselves. [01:07:17] Speaker B: They kind of withdraw from even socializing. [01:07:20] Speaker D: Even. [01:07:20] Speaker B: Even friends, even the household. They're just like, withdraw. I've noticed. And then gambling and little things like that on the side. [01:07:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:29] Speaker B: You know, that's how I started. [01:07:31] Speaker A: Once the structure falls apart, self care starts to fall away. He's not like reading, journaling, doing anything. You know, he's going to tell you he's fine. I'm just busy. I need to relax. Leave me alone. You know, they're the old patterns that start coming in. And I think you'll find when they do have the secrets and when we, you know, when we do keep the secrets, it turns into anger. [01:07:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:07:54] Speaker B: Because they're frustrated that they have to keep up the lies. So what about for people that are listening and they are thinking these things and they are noticing these signs? How would you suggest someone then go from that, from noticing the signs and thinking it, and now you've pointed out ways to identify it. What would be the next. [01:08:16] Speaker A: It's really tough because, like the. You've got to be ready, you know, you've got to be ready to want to change again. And you'll be in denial. I think it's having that. Sitting down, having that conversation, say, hey, we're about to have a really tough conversation here. It's probably going to suck. It's probably going to really hurt. And it's. And I'm here because I love you and I want to be with you and I want to help you here. But this is what I'm noticing. This is the old pattern behavior. But you can tell me that. We have so much fear, men particularly. We have so much fear that if we do tell the truth that our whole world's gonna blow up. [01:08:52] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. [01:08:53] Speaker A: And it's all gonna fall apart. Everything's gonna be disintegrated again. And maybe it will. You know, it might. Might have to happen, but it might not as well. You know, it might be a. Hey, it might be that breaking point of like, actually, yeah, like, I've just been holding on this for so long and I just didn't know how to tell you. But if, you know, you're gonna stick with me and we. We can work through this together. It's a hard one and it really is. It could blow up. You know, it could really blow up. But, you know, if that deep conversation, that deep love and that showing that we're going to walk through this fire together again, a lot of the time, you know, I don't know if my wife could do it again. [01:09:35] Speaker D: No. [01:09:37] Speaker B: So obviously you didn't have family members in with addiction that you've had to go through this with on the other, on the other foot that people have done with you. [01:09:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:47] Speaker B: But have you had that with some, some of the men that you have been coaching that you see them falling into and have they tried to hide relapsing? [01:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:09:59] Speaker B: And so do they do these things? They do all these things as well. [01:10:02] Speaker A: And they'll tell you, they'll tell you everything's okay. [01:10:04] Speaker D: Everything's okay. [01:10:05] Speaker A: Like, you know, recently a bloke that I'm working with, is he the worst thing you could do is cut people off? [01:10:14] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:10:15] Speaker A: And so he's going, he's lost. You know, I know, I don't know because he hasn't told me. But my suspicion is that he started to drink. He started, he started having drinks again. Again. We talked about alcohol and what it leads to, progresses to. And I think that's what happened with this guy. But he's not honest. Honest with me. So everything's going. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm not seeing anything pop up on the app saying that he's going to the gym. You know, I'm not seeing the, the end of week report that we do. I'm not seeing the weekly game plan that we do to make sure. So, you know, it's the same sort of thing. Like the routine, the structure starts to go. [01:10:44] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:10:44] Speaker A: Loses his job working on the mines because he was talking on the phone instead of and he didn't have his hands on the steering wheel. Loses his job, relationship breakdown, relationship in an ex, partner, vro. All sort of world just a. Starts crumbling around you again. And most of the time with relapse, you end up worse than before recovery. [01:11:06] Speaker D: Right. [01:11:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:07] Speaker B: Okay, so what would you, what advice would you give to someone who's going through a relapse? [01:11:12] Speaker A: Yeah, my advice would be I really believe in the 12 step program. I think the 12 step program is a great place to start. Like a lot of the people again and I at the detox center that I go to next step, they'll say, I just don't know where to start. And I said, we'll start there. There's a 12 step program that's got, that starts at step one. [01:11:35] Speaker B: What are the 12 steps. [01:11:36] Speaker A: Oh, well, I don't even know. [01:11:38] Speaker C: And so if anyone interested, this is for NA and AA as well. They have actually quite a few community groups all over, everywhere from. [01:11:47] Speaker B: Can I get you to bring some of those up? When I put Go to a song? [01:11:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I've even got some there. I've got one here for South Metro Community Alcohol and Drug Service. That's one that you can go to for help with counseling. They'll talk to you, give you suggestions and ways to help you get off the drugs or alcohol. But obviously, if you just Google AA or NA in your local area, say Western Australia, Perth, Mandurah, something will come up on your phone. [01:12:16] Speaker D: Yeah, okay. [01:12:17] Speaker C: And they can be very helpful. [01:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah, there's. In Western Australia, we're very, very fortunate, where they've got lots of avenues for people who are wanting to get clean and sober. The first thing I would suggest for people to do is to get to their GP first, have a chat with the gp, and then we've got a government agency called Drug and Alcohol Community Services, cads. It's called North Metro, South Metro, East Metro cads. They do free counselling, family services, outreach work. They do referral and assessments. They're great government. So they're free. Free. So that would be the first place to start. Then you've got detox. If you're really serious, you need to detox, you need to get the substance, anybody. And that's where it first starts. But it's not enough. People go to detox and go, well, I'm clean now for a week. I'm gonna be all right. It's not enough. And then you've got from there again, counseling. Have counseling. Have someone in your corner, have someone you can talk to. And I think there's some pros and cons with counseling, especially with drugs and alcohol, because people feel like you're in addiction and they speak to a clinical counselor who doesn't have the lived experience. They can find it really difficult. [01:13:21] Speaker B: I've actually heard about that. Like, they find it better to come from someone who's lived the experience. [01:13:26] Speaker A: Yeah, but they, like. They find it too textbook. But at the same time, they. [01:13:31] Speaker B: You need that, you need that textbook as well as someone. [01:13:35] Speaker A: They can guide you through the path of trauma and understanding and coping and being in those strange. [01:13:40] Speaker B: So recognize why you used, maybe. [01:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And then you've got rehabs. [01:13:45] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:13:45] Speaker A: So you've got so many rehabs in Perth. You know, I'll name. You know, I've got the biggest one in Perth is Serenian House. They've got a heap of different rehabs of men's rehab, women rehabs. They've got Serrano, Palmerston's. The second, you got Shalom. Shalom is face based organization. There's a lot of like heat on Shalom. [01:14:07] Speaker D: Yeah, I have heard that. [01:14:09] Speaker B: And then the female one of those. What's that one called? No, the female one. [01:14:13] Speaker A: I can't. [01:14:14] Speaker C: Shalom 2.0. [01:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:18] Speaker B: Esther, is it? [01:14:19] Speaker A: Esther House. No longer Serenian House and Shalom. Look, they have got hundreds and hundreds of men and women and families in looking after themselves in recovery, working, paying off debts. [01:14:36] Speaker D: Yeah, I heard that. [01:14:37] Speaker A: Amazing. You know, it might be. He might be Peter Lynn and James out there, legend, you know, like he's. He's changing people's lives. So you can get. Again what you said before, haters are gonna hate, you know, like people are gonna give him grief because his way of doing things is a little bit different to some of the other residential rehabs out there. Yeah, but he's doing it. [01:14:55] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:14:56] Speaker B: So how many rehabs did you actually go to before prison or whatever? [01:15:00] Speaker A: I went to. [01:15:01] Speaker B: Went to Thailand and had an amazing holiday. [01:15:03] Speaker A: Great holiday. [01:15:04] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Shout out. I went to Abbotsford Private Hospital for multiple, multiple stays. So they were 30 day stays. But, man, I ran amok in those places. I just, I was not ready. And like I did some crazy, crazy things, man. [01:15:22] Speaker C: I'd just be putting you to sleep with it and just go to sleep. [01:15:26] Speaker A: I don't know if I should tell this story, but I was. [01:15:30] Speaker B: Remember, your parents are probably listening. [01:15:32] Speaker C: If it's anything to do with smearing things on the wall, I don't think we want to hear. [01:15:35] Speaker B: No, I don't think. [01:15:36] Speaker A: I don't think that I was at. It was probably my first or second time at Abbotsford Hospital and I somehow talked someone into bringing a screwdriver into the facility. All right. [01:15:50] Speaker D: Wow. [01:15:50] Speaker A: And you can have your phone in all sorts of things. So I unscrew. I was in one of the rooms, I unscrewed all the mesh screening, the fly screen on one of the windows. I unscrewed it all, unscrewed the window, got someone to come and drop off some meth to me. I had my drawer that I'd taken out, I had stuck in the window, the window open. My legs hanging outside the window, picking up the meth on the floor and. [01:16:15] Speaker C: Trying not to let the window close. [01:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah. I turned around and the nurse was standing there. [01:16:19] Speaker D: Oh, really? [01:16:20] Speaker A: And I started going. She took Off I. [01:16:25] Speaker D: Right. [01:16:25] Speaker A: This is the crazy things you do. And so I fixed it all up, put all the screws back in, sealed it all up, hid the gear and then they put me in the observation room for the next, the next sort of three, four weeks that I was there. So like I did some silly things there. So that was one. [01:16:39] Speaker B: Did they find the gear though? Did you end up having. [01:16:44] Speaker A: Us too? Damn. So look, you're just obsessed. It's just a compulsion. And the worst thing is with the obsession of compulsion of drugs and alcohol is that it's a mental thing, but your body feels it too. So you've got this mental addict voice. And I talk a lot about the addict voice in my program, the addict voice telling you to use and then your body's backing it up. So it's really hard to battle these two different things. [01:17:07] Speaker C: The body and the brain are very, very connected. [01:17:09] Speaker A: So, so, so that they had, they had a, they had a rehab called Blackwood River Clinic. So I went down there for a little bit. I went to Thailand and then I went to Tenacious House. I think four or five different ones. [01:17:23] Speaker B: And so did you notice the different techniques or the different ways they do each? [01:17:29] Speaker A: Everyone's different. There's different ways. [01:17:32] Speaker B: The 12 steps fundamental in all of those. [01:17:35] Speaker D: Not all of them. [01:17:36] Speaker A: Not all of them. The majority of them will do the 12 steps. Like I don't think Shalom House do the 12 steps. They're very much faith based. So you've got Serenian House and Tenacious House and I think Palmerston introduced, I think, I'm not too sure, I don't know. And there's Harry Hunters as well. Harry Hunters is a shorter term residential rehab and they're more phased work, more focused on the addiction itself rather than the holistic view of recovery and addiction. [01:18:04] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:18:05] Speaker A: So, but yeah, the 12 steps are definitely fundamental. I believe that you should have that as part of your arsenal within addiction recovery. So. [01:18:12] Speaker D: Yeah, okay. [01:18:13] Speaker B: So yeah, I was just wondering like the, the differences of the different rehabs. [01:18:18] Speaker A: Yeah, so we, I think, you know, there's a thing called a therapeutic community. And a therapeutic community is more a PR driven rehab. So they, it's more around assigning responsibilities, assigning roles. [01:18:32] Speaker B: Is that like the mentorship kind of thing? [01:18:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it is, it's, it's peers again, peers helping other peers. But they have like their behavior, the way they structure the behavior. And I think that I don't, I've never been to one, so I'm only sort of going off second hand. They have something called flags and bouquets, which is also awareness and gratitudes. So if you step out of line or if you have a behavior that is coming up like avoidance or avoid arrogance or all those different types of behaviors, like defects that we have, they will publicly point you out. So it'll be in a group, so. [01:19:05] Speaker D: You would have to wear it. [01:19:06] Speaker A: You'll be given an awareness, you're given a flag and then they talk about those in groups and then they'll decide what to do and sort of around or they'll give you gratitude saying you're doing a great job doing that sort of thing. People really love that. It can work for some people because they need that accountability. They haven't understood their behaviors or understood what's going on from before and now they're getting. Getting it pointed out to them publicly and they need that and they love that accountability. Some people hate it. [01:19:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:19:30] Speaker A: Some people can't imagine. [01:19:32] Speaker B: Well, if you're getting flagged, I would. Yeah, I wouldn't like that. [01:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah. But it works. Hey, it's been around for like. Yeah, like I think the 1940s therapeutic communities have been around. [01:19:42] Speaker C: Okay, so it's public flogging. I don't want that either. [01:19:47] Speaker A: Progress from there. But then we do, we do something called, called like a behavioral traffic light system where we would. There'll be a green light, will be stuff like, we've noticed that you don't have assertive communication skills or we notice that you have avoidance by constantly doing the dishes or doing other people's work or doing other things. You aren't able to, you know, there might be some aggression, there might be some anger, there might be some. Yeah. Whatever it is, we'll pick you up on that behaviour and, and we'll give you some work to do around it. If it escalates to the next point, it's an amber, like, hey, we're starting to get a little bit worried about what's going on here. This could really affect your recovery. [01:20:22] Speaker B: I think they do that in primary school too. [01:20:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:23] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:20:24] Speaker A: And then the last one is obviously a red line. That's your last warning. Like, hey, this is really affecting your recovery. [01:20:29] Speaker D: Yep. [01:20:30] Speaker A: You need to do some work on it. We're going to help you with that. But we're going to really focus on working on this behavior because otherwise you're not going to be here and you're going to. You're going to miss out on this opportunity. So it's different. They're all very, very different. [01:20:41] Speaker D: Different. Yeah. Okay. [01:20:43] Speaker B: Have you Got any questions you want to ask? [01:20:44] Speaker C: That's good. [01:20:46] Speaker B: I might cut to a song. And because we've got a bit of Roy Orbison here for Uncle Gary, as requested, we've got Only the Lonely. We'll cut to a song and we'll be back. [01:20:56] Speaker A: More music, Better Mental Health. Only on IPL Radio. [01:21:05] Speaker B: And you're back in the studio for all the things at ipl. You're joined by Jen, Jen and Liz. And we've got Hayden in the studio tonight talking about all things recovery and rehab. [01:21:16] Speaker C: It's been a very informative night. [01:21:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been cool, actually. Yeah. So is there anything that we haven't touched on that you wanted to talk about? [01:21:25] Speaker A: Touched on a lot, haven't we? [01:21:26] Speaker D: We have, yeah. Yeah. [01:21:28] Speaker A: I don't know. Have you got any questions? Is there anything so you want to ask me? You have, but I have. [01:21:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:34] Speaker C: You go, Liz, have you found that music or, you know, radio, anything influenced your journey at all? [01:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, like there's a lot of recovery songs out there, a lot of people like Jen asked me a couple of songs. [01:21:46] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:21:46] Speaker A: Earlier today and I think there was. I love Aussie hip hop and I love Aussie rap and old school. So, yeah, he'll talk goods and listen. So listen. So I've got a song called Devil On My Shoulder and that's about his journey of recovery and I love like that that he can show his. His journey through music. [01:22:08] Speaker C: But serious question, but you can't sing. [01:22:11] Speaker B: So you do it this way. [01:22:12] Speaker A: Hey. [01:22:14] Speaker D: Oh, hang on. [01:22:14] Speaker B: You were in a band, weren't you? Was that your brother? [01:22:17] Speaker A: Our brothers, yeah. [01:22:19] Speaker B: Amelia Donut. [01:22:20] Speaker A: No, that was my two other brothers called. Yes. A Million Donuts. [01:22:23] Speaker B: How do I remember that? [01:22:24] Speaker A: Because they were really good. [01:22:26] Speaker B: How did I remember that? [01:22:27] Speaker A: That was named after my wife. [01:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just gonna say, isn't that your wife's name? [01:22:30] Speaker A: Yeah, Millie Dane. So they got it. Millie Donut. [01:22:32] Speaker D: Yeah. Oh, wow. [01:22:33] Speaker A: But, yeah, my brothers played in a band together for a bit and. Yeah. So. [01:22:37] Speaker C: But yes, I was going to say serious question. Remember my questions? But I remember that cursor or 360. It's always a constant debate about 360 or cursor. I'm a 360 girl myself. [01:22:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's. I think 360 as well. And I love his comeback story as well. [01:22:53] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [01:22:55] Speaker C: Especially hearing about his eye loss and things like that and how he used to be a little bit of a trouble team too. [01:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think, you know everyone who's Got that artistic, you know, particularly their story to tell. It's got some sort of trouble. I think we all do, but, you know, we all come from something. But yeah, the way he shares, the way he's come back. And I think, you know, you heard about my brother telling me about the comeback story. You know it. That's what I try to inspire all the blokes here, particularly when I share at na. I'll talk about comeback story. What are we writing? What are we building? What are we. What's the next. Next chapter? What does it look like? So, yeah, that's a huge part of my life. I think when I was in the crypts of recovery. There's a song from Hilltop Hoods called I won't let you down. And I listened to it today. [01:23:43] Speaker D: Did you? [01:23:43] Speaker A: I did when Jen asked me and I cried like, I. I was like, this actually brings back. [01:23:47] Speaker C: It's some of those songs that just hit that. [01:23:49] Speaker D: That little. [01:23:50] Speaker A: That little spot because I let so many people down. [01:23:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:23:53] Speaker A: And. And it was like there was this element of the guilt and shame of. Of wanting not to let people down. But it was also like the inspiration of keep going. [01:24:08] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:24:08] Speaker A: Keep going on this journey. So, yeah, I think music does play a big part. I think there was a lot in. Particularly in the early days, they did a lot of musical therapy. So they pick a song and they say, you know, sing it out. And people just get so upset and like, it means so much to them. And I think it's such a great escape too. I said I love putting on my headphones today. Pretty cheesy. But I love listening to Connor Price. I think he's a tick tock rapper from. From Canada. And I just listen to him all the time. [01:24:36] Speaker C: I don't know if I've heard of him. [01:24:37] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:24:38] Speaker A: So I love his sort of stuff. Yeah. And I love a bit of country rap now. [01:24:43] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:44] Speaker C: There's a few out there now, isn't it? [01:24:46] Speaker B: I'm totally getting into that. [01:24:47] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:24:47] Speaker C: Like, it's like jelly roll and like that kind of stuff. [01:24:50] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:24:51] Speaker A: So, yeah, music's huge. I think it should be part of everyone. I think it fills us up. [01:24:55] Speaker B: It's, you know, I think it unites everyone. Just like faith and stuff does. [01:25:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:01] Speaker B: I think music does as well. [01:25:03] Speaker C: Something that everyone can have in common. [01:25:04] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:25:05] Speaker A: Love. Good worship song, you know, Real powerful worship song as well. Can't you know something about God and, you know, in there as well? You know, getting all people together, raising their hands and singing along together about their Faith is something special as well. [01:25:18] Speaker B: So that is actually beautiful. I did actually enjoy the singing part when I went to church. [01:25:22] Speaker D: Yeah, it's just. [01:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it was magical. [01:25:26] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:25:26] Speaker B: So what else? What are you. Are you finished with your questions? So what have I got here? So I had written a few talking points down just in case we got to this point, got to this point, or if, like, if we wanted to cover certain things. And I know you did say you wanted to cover certain things, but I think going through your story, I think you've kind of touched on a lot of things. I did ask you what is the most, you know, when you're going through a journey with someone and you see someone making these massive changes? I asked you, what's the most transformative or the most profound, you know, comeback story you've seen? [01:26:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:26:10] Speaker B: Can you think of any? [01:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I've got. I've had the privilege of working alongside 200 to 250 men while working at Tenacious House. And, you know, I think that story that you talk about, you know, it's. A lot of people will say, well, what's the success rate? It's really hard to put your finger on what a success rate looks like in recovery. [01:26:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:26:31] Speaker B: Because it's an ongoing thing. [01:26:32] Speaker A: Well, you might have these blokes who come into the. Into the rehab or into the program and they. They learn a little bit. They learn about recovery. They get that bit of abstinent time up and they're feeling good about themselves and they might go on relapse, but you never forget it. You never forget that time when you're clean and sober. [01:26:47] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:26:48] Speaker A: You'll never forget what that feeling felt like of being finally free of the substance. So we've had a lot of the guys in our program who've been through and done the same thing, and then they've found their way back to recovery and doing really well. I think that one of the biggest transformative blokes that ever worked with. Try not to get too choked up here. His name is Brett. He's an older fella. So Brett diagnosed with bipolar disorder from a age of about 20, I think 23, 24. And he lived with that his whole life. He was diagnosed, but unmedicated and not really understanding the implement implications of what bipolar did for him. Just was going through the motions to the waiver of emotions, the highs and lows. [01:27:35] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:27:37] Speaker A: And he was homeless for probably five or six years. He came through our program and he'd been in Joondalup mental health facility for Four months prior to coming to Tanisha's house. So he. Such a beautiful story. His family thought they lost him, him, you know, they didn't know where he was. They didn't know. [01:28:00] Speaker B: Oh, because of him being homeless, had. [01:28:01] Speaker A: No idea if he was alive, if he was still, what he was doing. There was just no contact and he lost contact with them. So they said, yeah. Coming into the program, he spent 12 months in the residential facility and I took over and I used to like look after the continuing care phase, which is the transitional back into community. So he came over to me and over the time that we've spent together and we got him to a point where his mental health is stable, got him onto a depo injection to help him with his bipolar disorder. Yeah, we got him housing. So he's got long term stable housing forever. He's got NDIS support. So he's got people there and they come and see him three, four times a week and take him out and look after him and do everything they need to do with him. He's got that connection. He's still part of the fellow fellowship. He still comes into the church. Like he goes down, he's got a, an elderly mother, he's in his, he's in his mid-50s, elderly mother who's just been through cancer. He was there, he supported her through that. He was able to build that relationship. His parents, his mum and his sister come and celebrated his recently, his four years clean and sober after years and years of meth addiction and alcohol addiction and, and he's still going and he still contacts me once, once a fortnight, just gives me ring, hey, mate, how you going? He's just a great bloke and I think, you know, that's one story. Yeah, you know, there's so many stories that there was a bloke, a younger bloke who come over from the eastern states and we picked him up and he hadn't even had an assessment with us, he hadn't even had an even, even like contacted us. And he was just at the church with his mate who was going into rehab and he was like, please, I'm desperate, please take me with you. Take me, take me. And we did, we gave him a shot. And you know, today he's, you know, he's working, he's got a great partner, he's part of the church, he's doing really well, he's thriving, still has his issues, still has some mental health challenges. [01:29:55] Speaker C: I mean, everyone has their issues. [01:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah, but you know, like some more than Others. Yeah, so there's so many. [01:30:00] Speaker B: So what determines who you actually accept. [01:30:03] Speaker A: Or don't accept at Tenacious House? [01:30:05] Speaker B: Yes. [01:30:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well we will accept anyone willing to give it a go. Really. I think there's some slight exclusions like if you've got outstanding legal stuff happening at the moment that stops you from going. When you get those things sorted out, anyone from 18 to 65 or 18 above can, can come in if they want to change their lives. Yeah, we'll give, we'll give anyone a go. [01:30:28] Speaker B: So they will give anyone a go. [01:30:29] Speaker A: We a little bit unique at Tenacious House us that we have. We are mental health and co occurring aod. So there's a lot of facilities who don't have the capacity or capability to look after the guys who have those, those mental health diagnosis. So we get a lot of guys who do experience schizophrenia who do experience, you know, the bipolar and the different disorders as well. So we have funding for those beds. We have five beds available for guys who have got mental health and co occurring AOT aod. You have to have the AOD associated chicken usually comes with it anyway. Yeah, so look, yeah, we'll give anyone, anyone a shot who's willing to give it a go. [01:31:06] Speaker D: Okay. [01:31:07] Speaker B: And is there, is there certain cases you have to like, is there anyone that you turn away? Is there reasons like what are the reasons for that? Look, there's people that aren't really doing the work, they're just coming to say they're going or. [01:31:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:21] Speaker B: Is there people like that? [01:31:22] Speaker A: There is, yeah. Of course there's people who there who really, you know, this is similar to what I did. They want to tick box for court or you know, or their family wants them to get in there but they actually not ready to show up. They're not ready to do the work. [01:31:37] Speaker B: So they're doing it for someone else. [01:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's, you know, there's a couple of exclusion lists like if you're, you know, under sex offender register, if you're arsonists, you know, that's high risk. Like if you're, if you've got high episodes of or reoccurring self harm, that can be a barrier as well. But we do try and help and overcome those things. So they're pretty good in trying to give everyone a chance. Like if they, if you want it, if you keep showing up, if you keep coming to the meetings, keep coming to, keep contacting us, we'll work with you. I work with a lot of guys on our, on our wait list to Overcome all sorts of barriers like family barriers, housing barriers, financial barriers, settling barriers, barriers, medical barriers. Anything there we can try and help them overcome. [01:32:19] Speaker D: Yeah, right. [01:32:20] Speaker B: Sounds cool. And have you been there and seen the same people come through over and over again? And what, what would you say is fundamentally the issue with that? Is it not really wanting to do it or. [01:32:34] Speaker A: I think they really want to. I think again, it. Well, it's such a broad question. [01:32:40] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:32:41] Speaker A: Complain. Complacency. [01:32:42] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:32:42] Speaker A: I'm going to put it down to complacency. [01:32:44] Speaker D: Right. [01:32:44] Speaker A: A lot of the time you think you've got it. You don't think. You, you're not implementing all the structure and the routine and the, and the, the foundation. You're not building your solid foundation. A lot of the guys will think that they've had a few months up and they've. They've got it. But if you don't, if you're building a house on sand, it's going to fall over. [01:33:02] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:33:02] Speaker A: So if you're building a hat, you don't have the solid foundation down. Like the meetings in place, the structure of the day, daily routines, the contacts, the support, the sponsor, all those things in place, and you stop if you think, okay, I've got this now. It'll crack. The foundation will crack and you'll fall over and you end up back into relapse. I think mental health is a challenge, too. A lot of the guys coming through with mental health challenges and who particularly like schizophrenia is a really, really tough one, one really, really tough to work with people who experience schizophrenia. Because I talk about the addict voice so much. It's the addict voices. The ego is the overpowering voice in our head that tells us we need to use the obsession, the compulsion that talks to us, that just wants to kill us, basically in addiction. Well, they've got that voice in a different way, consistently in multifaceted ways. [01:33:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:33:58] Speaker A: So how to try and remove that or change that or to try and differentiate that from schizophrenia to the addict voice, to the ego, to whatever you want to call it, is very, very difficult. So to be able to manage that and sometime again, complacency will kick in and they'll think they're doing really great. They're clean and sober. The voices have quietened down their medications. So they think they can go back to work or they can think they stop medication, they can stop the exercise, and then it ramps back up again. And I've got a copy hope. [01:34:27] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:34:27] Speaker A: Got to deal with it. So, yeah. So it's just, it's so such a broad, broad question. Yeah. [01:34:33] Speaker B: And there's lots of factors to it. [01:34:34] Speaker A: There's so many, so many reasons why people relapse. [01:34:37] Speaker C: But do you think there's a lot of stereotypes and, and things like that over people that, that do use? [01:34:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. [01:34:44] Speaker C: And even just trying to get help? [01:34:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. The junkie, you know, I used to, you know, I used to call myself that, you know, the junk junkie. There is definitely like if you, you know, you see people, people just don't know where to get help. It's such a complicated system, you know, it is once you know it, like I can rattle it off front to back because I know. [01:35:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:35:06] Speaker A: But if you are trying, if you're that person who is trying to get help, like you ring some of the services and they'll ask you how many phases do we have in our program? And like you are hooked, right? You don't know from night and day. You've been up for days on a time. And they are ask you how many phases in their program. If you don't get that answer right, you're not allowed in. [01:35:21] Speaker D: Oh really? [01:35:22] Speaker A: You know, there's, there's some harsh things like that, you know, like so, but yeah, there's definitely stigma around it. And I, and again, and I think I've said it before, like I will. I run a group on a Thursday morning and it's for people who want our wait list and I just get them ready for groups and ready for that treatment and start talking a little bit about sharing their experiences. And some of them will come in wasted, absolutely wasted. [01:35:43] Speaker C: I can imagine. [01:35:44] Speaker A: Yeah, but I show them love and I show them their worth and I say, yeah, enough, hey, may come back next week. And they feel safe to talk to me and they feel safe to share their experience. And I treat them like they're lesser because they've used that day they had to use to be able to get on the bus to be able to come there. [01:35:59] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [01:36:01] Speaker A: Strangers and share their story. [01:36:03] Speaker C: That's one of the things that I didn't like about NA or AA is that you know, you can't always really still be using when you go into those programs. [01:36:11] Speaker A: You can, you can. It's obviously not, it's an abstinence based program. We do in the program at the beginning we'll say, hey, if you've used today, we understand, come and talk to one of us at the end. But we prefer you not to share because a lot of time if you have intoxicated There's a lot of rambles, different directions, trying to keep it on track. [01:36:31] Speaker D: Yeah. Okay. [01:36:32] Speaker A: Hearing of people as well. But it's not an exclusion for coming in. It might be exclusion for you to walk through because are so hard because you know the guilt and shame that you've used that day trying to walk in into those rooms, but it's not an exclusion for you to come into those. [01:36:46] Speaker C: Oh, that's good. [01:36:47] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I think, yeah. The 12 step is really daunting. In first. That first moment of walking through those doors, you know, you're going into a room. And the group that I go to, I go to a men's group on a Thursday night in June dinner. There's 40 to 50 blokes. [01:37:06] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:37:06] Speaker C: It's a lot of people, especially for someone with social anxiety, trying to get on that bus in the first place to get there. [01:37:12] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:37:12] Speaker A: So what we try and do and what the fellowship tries to do is make sure that you feel like you're the most important person. So we'll give you love, we'll go and show you. We'll give you a hug, we'll give you. We'll tell you like, yeah, you wanted here. Hey, just keep coming back, you know, this is hard. This is hard. [01:37:24] Speaker B: So you feel supported. [01:37:25] Speaker A: We just want you to come back. And our group does it pretty well. Some girl. Every group's different. You know, every group will be a little bit different. And I say, if you haven't found the right group, go to another one, try again, because you might walk in. I think my sponsor, when I talk to him, he. When he tells his story, he worked into it, walked into his first NA and there was a fist fight. Oh, there was a fistfight there. And he was like, I'm not going back to this craziness. And his dad said, find another one. And he did. And he got clean through the 12 step fellowship. So people can get. It's a great program. Got addicts helping other addicts. I think I'd strongly, highly recommend it. [01:38:04] Speaker C: And now it's seven years now clean. You've been. Do you still ever get those temptations? They still cross your mind at any, any time? Yeah, yeah. It never really regular everyday struggle. [01:38:17] Speaker A: It's not an everyday struggle. It becomes quieter and quieter over time. But it's definitely, it's definitely there. It's definitely in the back of your mind. [01:38:25] Speaker C: And niggle at the back. [01:38:26] Speaker A: It just says like one of the phrases is addiction is just sitting in the background doing push ups. It's just waiting for you to crack, it's just waiting for you. Because if you slip up, it's just that full force, it's strong, it's ready to go. It's very, very difficult to admit that you've relapsed or something's happened and walk back into the rooms. Like blokes who have got the courage to do that straight away. The comeback stories there are amazing. Like the resilience and the strength of people be able to relapse and then walk back through the doors of. [01:38:56] Speaker C: So what would be the first thing you would do if you felt those little thoughts just come back one day? [01:39:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:39:02] Speaker B: Is it certain things that trigger those thoughts? [01:39:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:05] Speaker B: Situations and things that you normally need. [01:39:07] Speaker C: To have been using to be a. Yeah, there is. [01:39:11] Speaker A: I think that again, it's different for everyone. Everyone's got different triggers and different. So like, for me, even coming down here, because I had, had. I did a lot of using down here. So I was driving past roads, I'm driving off turnoffs that for me that are familiar because that's where I was. [01:39:25] Speaker C: Going to go to pick up drugs or use drugs or use drugs or. [01:39:29] Speaker A: You know, I spent a bit of time down here in that and I haven't since I had relationships down. [01:39:34] Speaker C: Because you don't have a reason to come back up now. [01:39:35] Speaker A: No. I've heard about Rockingham, but I rock out here. But like, I see, you know, I see people, particularly on tv, shooting up and for me, it gives me this like, pain in the chest, but it's a full anxiety moment and it, like I have to click myself out of it and say, hey, no. But what I do, what I do is I try again. I talk a lot about, particularly my rebuild recovery program. I talk a lot about the addict voice and trying to shut that down and separate yourself from it. Because the addict voice will always tell you, hey, you've done really well. [01:40:11] Speaker C: It's just one more time. [01:40:12] Speaker A: No one's gonna know. [01:40:13] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:40:14] Speaker A: No one will find out. It'll just be fine. Like, you've done really well. Like, you deserve this. Like all these different little niggles and little voices. So you gotta actually shut it down and say, hey, that's not me. [01:40:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:40:25] Speaker C: Like, that's not the reward system you should be going for. Brain. [01:40:28] Speaker A: Well, I just. I say to you don't exist. You actually don't exist. You're just a voice in my head. I'm here. I'm the one in present. I'm the one living this life. I'm the one doing the Action. You're just this little thing in my head that keeps popping up every now and again. [01:40:40] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:40:41] Speaker A: But, yeah, definitely. It doesn't ever really go away. [01:40:43] Speaker D: Okay. [01:40:44] Speaker A: It's always you. I feel, in my opinion, once an addict, you've always going to have those compulsions. Those compulsions. [01:40:53] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:40:53] Speaker A: It's just a matter of having all those four elements that I talked about and community. You can't do this alone. [01:41:00] Speaker B: No. I think lots of people do struggle because they do try and do it alone or they don't feel like they have anyone to lean on because they've lost everyone. [01:41:08] Speaker A: So many blokes. And you talked about this in the masculinity thing that say, I'm just going to do this on my own. I just, I don't want to bother anyone. You know, I don't want to. I'm not going to pick up the call because they, you know, I'm going to bother them really. They don't want to be caught out. They don't record out on their bullshit. A lot of the time blokes just don't want to be. Don't want to face that, you know, so they won't pick up the phone and they won't reach out. You know, the biggest. The phone is your absolute, absolute angel. Or it's your worst nightmare. [01:41:35] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:41:36] Speaker A: It depends on which number you it call. [01:41:38] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. It's. [01:41:40] Speaker B: That's the gateway right there. [01:41:41] Speaker A: It is. It can be. [01:41:42] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [01:41:43] Speaker B: So with people, what is the most common addictions that you see that do? Is there like a one that relapses more than others? [01:41:52] Speaker A: Probably alcohol. [01:41:53] Speaker D: Probably. [01:41:54] Speaker C: When I was gonna say too. [01:41:55] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:41:56] Speaker C: I mean, just the fact that it is everywhere. [01:41:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:41:58] Speaker C: On every street corner. So readily available. [01:42:01] Speaker B: Think about it as being a thing like a. A substance abuse thing. I think it's just. Oh, you just. [01:42:07] Speaker C: I guess they don't say it as a drug much. [01:42:09] Speaker D: Yeah, but. [01:42:11] Speaker C: Or an addiction. But in, you know, in a lot of forms, anything can be an addiction. [01:42:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:42:16] Speaker A: You know, we don't separate the two. You don't. From drugs and alcohol. It's all the one. [01:42:20] Speaker B: It's all the one. [01:42:21] Speaker A: It's all the one thing. [01:42:22] Speaker B: And do you do gambling people like. [01:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. There's like. Gambling is gambling. Particularly with meth. You're up all night. [01:42:30] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [01:42:30] Speaker B: Spinning. [01:42:31] Speaker A: You're on the spins. So much time on the spin. So, you know, so. And like they try to cut it out. They try to put things in place, but you can't do that. But, you know, there's ways to get around to spin on your mobile and gamble. So a lot of people will just rely on that, gambling on that, those spins to be able to pay, you know, for what they're doing. So porn's a big one. [01:42:52] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:42:53] Speaker A: Porn addiction goes hand in hand with Matthew. [01:42:56] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:42:56] Speaker A: So porn myth, you know, it wants, it makes you more active, sexually active. [01:43:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:43:02] Speaker B: And then I've heard of sex addiction. [01:43:03] Speaker A: Sex addiction, porn addiction. Get stuck and then you're on reels over and over and over again. Like the reels are addiction. The reels. Okay. How many times you get stuck on there and you've done. [01:43:11] Speaker D: Oh God. [01:43:12] Speaker C: I mean we talk a lot about a lot of funny addictions the other week, didn't we? [01:43:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that was insane. [01:43:17] Speaker C: One of them was drinking blood. [01:43:19] Speaker D: We had. [01:43:21] Speaker B: That was a really weird show actually. We laughed that whole time. It was crazy. [01:43:26] Speaker C: Some people that like to eat chalk sponges. [01:43:30] Speaker B: There were some random things like we were looking up because I'd reached out to you. [01:43:34] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:43:34] Speaker B: And then I thought what about like doing a show about the weirdest addictions or, or habits or things like that? And I did, we did a show on that. [01:43:44] Speaker A: No one's ever come to me for that. Oh yeah. [01:43:47] Speaker B: Seriously, I have to tell you something. We'll have to look them up because we. My cheeks were hurting. I was like. [01:43:51] Speaker C: We were laughing so much. [01:43:52] Speaker B: I was going like this. I couldn't, I couldn't stop. It was crazy. But that was an interesting show. That was. [01:43:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:43:59] Speaker B: Okay. So have you got any more questions? [01:44:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I got some questions. Oh I do, I do, I do. [01:44:05] Speaker A: Throw them at me. [01:44:07] Speaker B: Throw em. [01:44:07] Speaker D: Here you go. [01:44:08] Speaker C: Here's my phone. Straight in the face. [01:44:12] Speaker B: Trying to kick your habit are. [01:44:14] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:44:16] Speaker C: It does get a bit doom scrolly at home sometimes. I gotta say. [01:44:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm so bad for it. Hyper focus. [01:44:22] Speaker C: So is there anything that people, other people can say or do, maybe even with good intentions that can contribute to feeling worse or contribute to the stigma? You know, something that someone in. That's trying to find help would just go, why the heck did you just say that? [01:44:40] Speaker D: That? [01:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah, look, there's, there's going to be people out there who, who don't get it. You know, you might walk up to a receptionist at an AOD facility who just treat you like a bag of crap. [01:44:53] Speaker D: Yep. Yep. [01:44:54] Speaker C: And think you're less than something on their shoe. [01:44:56] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:44:56] Speaker A: Like you haven't showered for a few days because your, your personal hygiene goes out the window. You haven't, you haven't eaten. So you're looking gaunt. You haven't had the money for a haircut, you know, and you walk into these facilities asking for help and they just look to you, look at you, like. Like you're worthless. But you don't know the trauma that you've been through. [01:45:13] Speaker D: No. [01:45:14] Speaker A: They don't know your past. I don't know. So, yeah, definitely, like. And that's the biggest thing. That's the biggest thing. Like you getting judged for getting judged. [01:45:22] Speaker C: And someone's not walked in your shoes. [01:45:23] Speaker A: Or lived your life, you're already judging yourself. [01:45:27] Speaker C: Oh, of course. I think that we're always, always the hardest on ourselves. [01:45:31] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:45:31] Speaker B: We are our own harshest critics. [01:45:33] Speaker D: Yes. [01:45:34] Speaker B: So I think we're talking when the songs were on about generational addictions and how some people, it's. It's a learned behavior. It's, you know, I mean, I know that my dad was the first one to give me marijuana. I used to swap it for alcohol, but that's. [01:45:51] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:45:51] Speaker B: No, at 13, I think I was 13. [01:45:54] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:45:55] Speaker B: So obviously it was okay in my dad's house to smoke pot. [01:45:59] Speaker D: Pot. [01:45:59] Speaker B: He didn't like drinking because obviously my mum was an alcoholic, so he didn't like drinking. Which is weird because one house drinking was okay, and the other house. Yeah. Smoked pot. So that was made okay in my world, in my life. [01:46:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:18] Speaker B: And it, you know, I think I was numb to things that should have been. I should have been, you know, reactive to or, you know, but they were normalized. And I think then, you know, obviously my. My. My dad is a drug addict. Just turned 70 and still doing it. But, you know, I mean, I've had different experiences growing up and I don't want to be like, I just had that in my head. I don't want to be like that. [01:46:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:46:49] Speaker B: And same like when I, you know, turning 40, everything freaking hurts, doesn't it? [01:46:54] Speaker D: What is that? [01:46:55] Speaker C: Right. I'm 30 and everything hurts. [01:46:57] Speaker B: Then I discovered red wine and I'm like, damn, this is good. And it makes. Takes all those aches and pains away. But then I felt like my mum and then I started beating myself up about it. But so what I've seen is a lot of families will pass on their bad habits or addictions and make them okay. And I think those kind of people, to break that generational, you know, bad habits and become the, you know, what do they call them? The cycle breaker and then become the sober person. [01:47:32] Speaker D: Like those. [01:47:32] Speaker B: Those would be amazing come. Come back stories. [01:47:35] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's, you know, I hope to be Part of that, yeah, that's, that's my goal. It's. I want to break the cycle of addiction within my family. You know, I have family members who generationally. Alcoholics. Alcoholics, you know, they really hard for me to talk about. It's really like. It's, it's probably one of the biggest pain points for me is, is that I think. But yeah, how we look at the culture we live in. Yeah, look at the culture with alcohol. Alcohol is so normal, especially in Australia. [01:48:07] Speaker C: Very, very. It's a big drinking culture in Australia. [01:48:11] Speaker A: My parents had, you know, the best intentions, but I remember being, you know, at a New Year's in New Year's party and giving me some alcohol and they were giggling away because they was a bit tipsy, you know, like, you. [01:48:22] Speaker B: Know, give me some beer or something. [01:48:23] Speaker A: And you know, and it's. The message is starting to change a little bit now around, hey, no. You say no, parents say no. But back in the day that was, it was normal. [01:48:31] Speaker B: It was normal to give your kids. [01:48:32] Speaker A: You know, a drink or a beer or a bit of wine or that sort of thing. But yes, generational trauma is, you know, rife within our, within Australian culture, within indigenous communities, within non indigenous communities. You know, passing those generational traumas on and the knowledge and what we do is very, very difficult to break. Yeah, but it's something that, yeah, it's getting to, I think, so much more known in our community now that the damages and the destruction, that especially domestic violence and everything that's happening in our community. [01:49:04] Speaker B: So that was normalized in my household too. And so when it happened to me and like, you know, your relationships, it was normal. And then that's kind of stuck with me. That's the kind of therapy I've been doing because it's not okay. And even, even though my dad is still an addict or he's still an active addict, I don't know what you call him. He did have a moment last year where he apologized for normalising these things. He said, if I hadn't have put that in your, in our life, maybe you would have done something different, you know, and those things wouldn't have been normal and you wouldn't have tolerated that kind of stuff. Obviously, going through domestic violence and things. I tolerated it because it was normal. [01:49:50] Speaker A: Our parents and our grandparents didn't have the same exposure to the, to what we have today around the dangers, around what's happening. So like mine won't even admit that there's a problem. [01:50:03] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:50:03] Speaker A: You know, so. And her Parents wouldn't admit that there's a problem. So. And that goes down the line. [01:50:10] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:50:10] Speaker A: So admitting it is the first step to overcoming it. You have to actually acknowledge. [01:50:15] Speaker B: Is that the first step out of the 12 steps? [01:50:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That I'm powerless. Yeah. My life becoming manageable. Yeah. So. So being able to admit that you're an addict. And it's why people in the 12 sticks, the first thing they do is say, hi, my name is Hayden, I'm an addict. They identify as an addict because they feel as one, but they are admitting that there's an issue. There's identifying as it. You don't have to carry that identity out into community. But, yeah, they're admitting that they're powerless and they've got a detection problem and their life has become a bad thing. [01:50:43] Speaker B: Is that something that you forever say, though? Hi, I'm Hayden, I'm an addict. [01:50:47] Speaker A: Only that there. [01:50:47] Speaker B: Only there. [01:50:48] Speaker C: Only aa na. [01:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah, Only there. I'm like, you can reframe it to I'm an addict in recovery or I'm a recovering addict or, you know, I think I find it's really funny. You see the guys that come into the rooms and they won't identify as an addict. [01:51:07] Speaker B: They're most likely to relapse. [01:51:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:51:10] Speaker C: Because they're still in denial. [01:51:11] Speaker B: They're not owning it. [01:51:11] Speaker A: They're not ready. They're not ready to go. So. So. But the generation stuff, it's what particularly what I try and teach so much is break this curse. [01:51:21] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:51:21] Speaker A: Let's break this generational. [01:51:22] Speaker C: I think a lot about that is like what our grandparents just used to ignore it, just push it under the rug. It didn't exist. If you don't acknowledge it, it didn't happen. [01:51:30] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. [01:51:31] Speaker C: So you just move on and get on with the next day. [01:51:33] Speaker B: If you don't raise an issue about it, then. [01:51:35] Speaker C: Then it's not an issue. Yeah, exactly. Whereas nowadays we can all come out, out and say, you know, no, look, this. What, what happened was wrong, shouldn't have happened and I'm going to do better. [01:51:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, obviously the stigma is slowly decreasing. There's stigma still attached to it, but the stigma around alcohol use and mental health and it's still out there. Still out there. But it's. It is something we can talk about a little bit more. [01:52:01] Speaker C: And I think maybe because more people are coming out and talking about it more, that it is getting less stigmatized and. And more resources are becoming available for people. [01:52:12] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:52:13] Speaker B: And I think then more people would get help. [01:52:15] Speaker C: Exactly. [01:52:15] Speaker D: Hopefully, yeah. Yeah. [01:52:18] Speaker B: So what else have you got there, Liz? I just shut my phone. I meant to print them out, but I didn't. Anyway, what's the best way that you. [01:52:27] Speaker C: Think a loved one can support someone who is battling an addiction? [01:52:31] Speaker D: One. [01:52:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, again, I think it's. Again, I talked about having those hard conversations and saying they're going to work, walk through the fire together. But it's also, again, not enabling the behavior. We find so many people that will pay the bills and they'll do all the things that they need to do for them. [01:52:47] Speaker C: It's really like what your brother said and he came to you and said, I know you can be better. [01:52:51] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:52:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think, yeah, having those hard conversations with them, having. Being able to walk through, being able to always offer them. But you can't change someone if they don't want to change, you know? And I think. And it is just so difficult because we get so many. I get so many mums calling me up and so many aunts for their sons and saying, hey, he needs really help. And I said, can you give us a call? And he doesn't. We don't hear from him. Yeah, we don't hear from that. So it's. [01:53:17] Speaker C: I think, unfortunately, you can't force it on people. It's not something that can ever be forced. [01:53:21] Speaker A: The only time they have to hit rock bottom. [01:53:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:53:24] Speaker A: And the rock bottom ends when they stop digging. Digging. So they need to be able to get to that point to be able to identify that. All of a sudden I got to stop digging here. I got to start filling it in with some good stuff. Having the awareness and having the encouragement and having some information available for them and being supportive in that. I don't believe in completely giving up on anyone. Yeah, I think, I think completely giving up and just saying, hey, no, you're not my problem anymore. You go and deal with it yourself because the problems probably stem from you, you know, so, you know, so, yeah, I don't believe in that. I think that there should be some sort of level of love and support all the way along. [01:54:01] Speaker B: What about tough love, though? [01:54:02] Speaker A: Yeah, tough love for sure. [01:54:04] Speaker B: So obviously your parents and your family did that with you in different ways. [01:54:09] Speaker D: Did they? [01:54:12] Speaker A: No. Like, yes and no. I think they didn't really have an idea. I was very, very good at keeping it safe. [01:54:19] Speaker D: Secret. Yeah. [01:54:19] Speaker A: I was very, very good at hiding it, you know, for a long, long time. And it wasn't until I got into real trouble, mental health wise. And. And before that I actually Admitted that there was a problem, but again, you know, love them dearly. They didn't have the information. I didn't really get it. I didn't really understand. [01:54:35] Speaker B: Did they go to any of the. Is it Al Anon? [01:54:37] Speaker A: No, no, my parents. My parents haven't been to Alanon. They come to the counseling sessions and they supported me through that and they, you know, they helped me through that. And when I was. Was really deep in addiction, you know, there was support for my wife and my children and in that. In that area, but. [01:54:52] Speaker C: Oh, that's great. [01:54:53] Speaker A: Yeah, supported. Supported her there. But one side did anyway. But they didn't have the wit. They don't have an awareness. They didn't have the awareness. I think our generation have more awareness to be able to help our children a little bit more if they were to go through it, you know, I believe they don't, but. Yeah. Yeah. [01:55:14] Speaker B: And so we haven't touched on prescribed or prescription drugs either. Someone's just sent in a question about that. [01:55:20] Speaker C: That's always an interesting one for me. [01:55:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:55:22] Speaker B: So what's. What. Yeah, what is this one? Sorry. Prescription drugs. And what's the success rate? I don't know. Is there just people that are just addicted to it? Like they'll just get addicted to everything. [01:55:37] Speaker C: Any pill. [01:55:38] Speaker B: Like, I don't. I don't know. Like, if you try one thing. Do they just want to try everything? Are there people like that? [01:55:43] Speaker A: Potentially? Yeah, potentially. But a lot of people will find their drug. [01:55:45] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:55:46] Speaker A: Have the drug of choice, sort of stick to that. Like, can usually be a combination of, you know, weed and alcohol or methane alcohol or heroin on their own or, you know. So there's some prescription pills. I think it's. Yeah, it's a very, very dangerous, dangerous way because it's so difficult to come off. [01:56:02] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:56:02] Speaker A: Like, the detox on the withdrawal pulse from prescription pills are horrible. Especially. Especially the benzos, you know, the Valiums and. [01:56:09] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:56:09] Speaker A: And things like that. You've got, you know. [01:56:11] Speaker C: Is that the stuff that they use for adhd? [01:56:15] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:56:17] Speaker B: I was on after I had my neck and my shoulder. [01:56:20] Speaker C: Are they uppers or downers? [01:56:21] Speaker B: No, they're benzo. So they're the muscle relaxant. And I was five years and I just got to a point where I'm. I was going in, booked in for surgery on my spine. I'm like, how do I know what pain I'm feeling if I've been on opiates and benzos for five years? And I just went, you know what? I don't want. I called off the surgery, and then I went cold turkey, and that was December. [01:56:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:56:44] Speaker B: And I haven't touched medication. [01:56:47] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:56:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really, really tough. [01:56:49] Speaker B: But you don't think you're addicted because it's prescribed to you? [01:56:52] Speaker A: Same as alcohol. Very, very similar. But, yeah, it's just because it's prescribed. [01:56:58] Speaker C: To you, though, doesn't mean it doesn't have addictive qualities. [01:57:00] Speaker B: I don't have the pain that I had when I was on the medication. [01:57:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:57:03] Speaker B: All those pains and all those other things and other medication to counteract those things became just like this big, you know, domino effect. And, like, I could have had surgery on my spine for no reason. I don't need it. I just said no. I just have a feeling I need to come off these meds to see what I actually really feel before anyone touches my spine. [01:57:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I had it. It's really hard to say. For a long time, I. I. From medication. I was on a medication that gave me restless legs, and I didn't realize that I was on a medication that gave me restless legs. So then I'd had another medication that would counteract the restless legs, and then I stopped the medication that was giving me the restless legs, but I just continued on with this stuff that stopped the restless leg because I thought I needed it. [01:57:45] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:57:45] Speaker C: Because you thought it was working. [01:57:46] Speaker A: Yeah. I was like, yeah. [01:57:47] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, this is awesome. [01:57:48] Speaker A: It's doing its job. [01:57:49] Speaker D: Job. Yeah. [01:57:49] Speaker A: But that drug, it was Lyrica. [01:57:52] Speaker D: Oh, yeah, it. Oh, that's. [01:57:54] Speaker B: That's a big addiction drug. [01:57:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a drug that I. I had to try it off. I had to slowly wean myself off because if I come off it too quick, it was too dangerous. [01:58:04] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:58:05] Speaker A: And, like, you've got. You know, for a long time, too, I thought that my antidepressant medication was. Was working, but I wasn't feeling anything. And then when I had to come off, it was probably harder than coming off method, really. Coming off antidepressant. Yeah, you know, it was. It took me longer. It gave me more dizzy. Yeah. For a long. It took me months to wean off it because if I was on it for so long and it was so interesting. Yeah. [01:58:33] Speaker C: Never, never experienced that. [01:58:34] Speaker A: It made me so sick with antidepressants. [01:58:36] Speaker C: Yeah. I've swapped over a couple times now just because of certain side effects, you know? [01:58:40] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:58:41] Speaker C: I guess the. The big difference is just the medication, how it reacts in different people's bodies. I mean, we're all different. [01:58:47] Speaker A: Also having these. They call it brain Zaps. I don't know if you've ever experienced that, but like your whole brain just goes bang. And it just feels like it's about to explode. And that's coming off? [01:58:56] Speaker C: I don't think so. [01:58:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's coming off. Antidepressant medication. [01:58:59] Speaker B: I'll tell you what I had from coming off Valium was a benzo tinnitus. And my ears would have ringing in my ears for six months. And it's because they're muscle relaxant. And then when you stop taking it, everything's all tensed up and so you've got this high pitched ringing in your ear. [01:59:21] Speaker C: So you're saying that I've always got high pitch ringing in my ear because I'm tense. [01:59:25] Speaker A: Maybe it could be angels trying to tell you something. [01:59:29] Speaker B: Can be. That's also a sign of being spiritually connected. [01:59:33] Speaker C: Oh, really? [01:59:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:59:34] Speaker C: Oh, there you go. [01:59:35] Speaker A: There you go. [01:59:35] Speaker B: Maybe you just need to kind of come on. I'm a really bad joker. [01:59:41] Speaker C: Hey, look, it's medical. It's medical. And this is why we're having the conversation on medical, medicinal when prescribed. [01:59:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:59:48] Speaker C: Versus obviously not prescribed. [01:59:51] Speaker B: So I've got someone messaging about their brother. He's done different rehabs. He's. I think he's in rehab now, has been hooked on everything and he's just come out of rehab again and they think he's back on stuff. So what can they do? And how do they get him the right help? And. [02:00:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:00:17] Speaker B: So how do they go about getting him in the right type of help? [02:00:20] Speaker A: Yeah. The question is, does he want it? [02:00:21] Speaker B: Does he want it? [02:00:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:00:22] Speaker A: And I think I get a lot of that question all the time, does he want it? But again, it's, it's. [02:00:27] Speaker B: So you think he's just doing the rehab just to do it. It to keep people. [02:00:31] Speaker A: No. [02:00:31] Speaker C: He could be trying and, and, and, you know, testing the water, seeing how hard it is. [02:00:36] Speaker A: Yeah. What's going on for him? What's happened to him? What's what. Why has he gone deep into, into. What's the underlying reason? [02:00:44] Speaker C: What's been happening in his life? [02:00:45] Speaker A: What's the, what's the root cause of the. The addiction? What's the, what's the trauma that's underneath it? Well, what. Isn't he not. [02:00:52] Speaker D: Is that. [02:00:52] Speaker C: What, where's the hole in the heart? [02:00:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:00:54] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:00:54] Speaker B: Okay. So you find. [02:00:55] Speaker A: What has he done? [02:00:56] Speaker B: They're filling with drugs. You find out what they're doing. [02:00:59] Speaker A: Has he done the deep work? [02:01:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:01:01] Speaker A: Has he really wanted to do the deep work? [02:01:03] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:01:04] Speaker A: So. Because that's really hard to go really deep, to really go understand what's going on, what happened. [02:01:09] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:01:09] Speaker A: And everyone's got something that happened, so generational trauma. [02:01:15] Speaker D: Thanks, Mom. [02:01:16] Speaker A: I think that's the question. Does you know, is, Is he. Is he wanting to go deep into it? Is he. You know, then you have to, you do have to find the right place. And we talked about the different residential. [02:01:26] Speaker C: Rehabs and because there's so many different. [02:01:28] Speaker A: Ones and how they operate, it's not, it's not a one size fits all for everything. So. And people will have like for me and I can, I can only talk about my experience and I'd love to be able to give you the right answers in, in this, but it's so different for everyone. I have in my life talked about this, but I've got a coach, I've got a sponsor, I've got a mentor, I've got a pastor, I, I've got the fellowship, I've got a village of people, I've got my family, I've got my fitness, I've got the people I coach, who I'm responsible for. I've got my work and I've got so many things that are around me that I've had to build up over the seven years that if I was to crumble or was to fall, that I'd just bounce back up and I'd be straight because they've got me, they know me, they know where I'm at. So is he willing to build those things? Is he willing to have goals? Is he willing to work a program? Is he willing to put things in place? You can do recovery. If you've got recovery in there, you can do, do it on your own, but you need the people around you, supports. You can't do it on your own, but you can do it outside of rehab. You just have to build the structure. So what's the goal? What's he trying to build? What's his mission? Who does he. Does he have an identity? Does he know who he is? Does he know what he wants to build outside of that? Has he got rid of the toxic relationships in his life? That's a huge one. So many people will go back to the same friend group or think that they can, you know, they'll answer the text message at night from the ex girlfriend, you know, like, hey, you up? You know, like, you know, like if they've got some toxicity there, you have to get rid of the toxic people in your life. It's. So, yeah, what can they do? Could keep. Keep plugging away at him, keep telling that they love him, keep showing him that they're. That he's got worth, he's got value and to just seeing it. Has he gone there? Has he really gone there? [02:03:12] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:03:13] Speaker B: Toxic circle. [02:03:14] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. [02:03:16] Speaker B: So they're listening, so they're taking notes. So that's good. If you have any more questions, just send them through. I have been getting a few questions. I'll go into messenger because I am getting a few through there. Do you have any. While I read these. [02:03:29] Speaker D: Let's have a look this. [02:03:32] Speaker B: So a lot of pain stuff. You could have been getting other people's pain, feeling it via. I don't know what that one's about. Sorry. I do have people that are going through their own sobriety and their own addiction triggers. What about triggers? So they were mentioning, you know, they've been avoiding going to events because they don't want to drink. And it's been two years and they haven't been anywhere. How do you deal with those types of environments and not drink and. Or not use. [02:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't a lot. You know, like, I've only started really. Like, I avoid situations where I put myself in danger. Like I. But I still. I've gone to concerts, I've gone to comedians, I've gone to, you know, things. But for me, I see it and it disgusts me because I just have this really horrible relationship with it. So for me, a trigger is trying to tell you something, something. It's an emotional GPS something, you know, there's something there. Well, there's something that's not quite right, that doesn't stick with your values. It's not quite your belief system. Like there's something that's going on for you that's not quite in line, in tune with where you're going and what you want to. What you want to build. So triggers is, is. Is a great thing. Listen to it. [02:04:45] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:04:46] Speaker A: Don't run away from it and lean into it. Lean into it and say, hey, what. What am I trying to be told here? What am I trying to. What is my body? Or what is my GPS system trying to tell me about this situation? And why is it a trigger? And if you do want to go to a concert, plan it. Right. Have an exit plan. Like I tell the guys all the time, if you're going to go to a party, like I've been to 40th, we went through the 40s. I'm 45 now. Went through the 40, you know, 40th birthday phase. And it was early in my recovery, I turned 40 in rehab. So I would set up and I'd contact a bloke before I go to the party. I'd say, hey, I'm only going to come for a couple of hours. Does all right. But when things start to get a bit too much, when the sloppiness comes in of the. The alcohol and so people start, I'm actually going to leave. And if I do leave, what I'm gonna. I'm just gonna send you a message. I might not even seem to say goodbye because I'm triggered or something's going on for me. But I'm. I'm gonna send you a message and tell you that I'm okay. Then I'm gonna. And then I'm gonna have a way to get out of there. So you're gonna have a partner or someone that's gonna whisper me or I'm driving or if I'm catching, I'm gonna have enough money for an Uber. What I'm going to do then is I'm going to jump onto a support. So I'm going to jump onto a support person on the phone and I'm going to say, hey, I've just left this party. I'm just driving home now because so many people will leave the party and go to the bottle shop. [02:05:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:05:58] Speaker A: Because they're triggered. [02:05:59] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:05:59] Speaker A: So, hey, can you just stay on the phone for me until I get home? I'm just going to say, hey, what's going on? You know, this is. I really need you right now. So have that exit plan, have that support person, have that accountability partner, have that exit plan in place. Like, really think about it, plan it right. So then you can leave or you're going to have a fantastic time. You're going to go there. The trigger wasn't. You know, there's some anxiety and some triggers and some things that have brought up for you, but if you've got. Planned it out, you've got the people there, you've got your exit plan, you've got everything in place before you go, you might have a wonderful time. I know a bloke recently who he's 18 months, two years in recovery, just went to his first concert. He heard every single note, he heard every. Every single lyric. He danced his ass off. He absolutely loved it for the first time back in there in that. But he had the plan. He went with people who also in recovery. Build your recovery network, build your peeps. Don't get too caught up in the in the big personalities. Because some people get caught up in the personalities of NAAA and like pick your peeps. You don't want to hang out with everyone. But yeah, have your support net with you. Plan it, go and try it. Have your exit plan. [02:07:05] Speaker B: Exit plan. I think that's smart. [02:07:07] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:07:08] Speaker B: Because I don't go to try and. [02:07:09] Speaker C: Have an exit plan on every night out. I need to get out of here. [02:07:13] Speaker B: My exit plan is just. [02:07:15] Speaker C: Okay, yeah, well that works. [02:07:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:07:16] Speaker B: But I've actually found like that going to concerts and things is always better when you're not drinking because then you're not stuck in the toilet line. [02:07:24] Speaker D: Oh. [02:07:24] Speaker B: And then you actually. [02:07:25] Speaker C: 20 times. [02:07:27] Speaker D: Yes. [02:07:28] Speaker B: I've actually, I actually made that change because I stopped drinking January and I went, you know, without alcohol at all. And then I started like having, you know, wine or whatever, but I still don't drink at concerts and things like that. I just found that it was better. [02:07:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:07:48] Speaker B: You know, and because in summer I went with that red hot summer thing that I did that story on. Oh my God, that was insane. I saw so many people that were collapsed and. Yeah, but drunk and on drugs and it was like, like I actually did a shout out in that article to all the people. [02:08:04] Speaker C: The first aid responders. Yes, yeah, yeah. [02:08:06] Speaker B: Because they were dealing with all these intoxications and all these drug affected people. And it just reiterates why it's much like you have more fun being sober. And that's just what I think. So every go to bed at 9:30. [02:08:20] Speaker A: Guys get into bed. We're getting too old for this. [02:08:23] Speaker D: Yeah, I know, right? [02:08:25] Speaker B: I know. Because like before it'd be like, oh yeah, let's go to this. Let's go to this. And now it's like, oh, just thinking about it. I'm tired just thinking about it, you know. So yeah, I've changed from, you know, going to these events and that was my thing, that was my therapy was going to live concerts and it does, it does become so tiring. [02:08:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:08:43] Speaker B: So yeah. But doing it sober, you know, you enjoy it more. You don't spend. [02:08:48] Speaker A: I would, I wouldn't definitely not spend. [02:08:50] Speaker C: As much money, that's for sure. [02:08:52] Speaker A: I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it too early in their recovery. So if they're under a year, I probably wouldn't do it. I actually don't recommend getting into relationships until at least two years clean. [02:09:05] Speaker D: Yeah, I've heard that. [02:09:06] Speaker A: Because relationships again, another huge thing. Probably we could talk about relationships. [02:09:12] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [02:09:13] Speaker A: But relationships particularly with BLOKES I can only talk from that perspective. You know, it might be similar for women as well, but you start to have big feelings. You start to have those big feelings, you know, and then, you know, so you. And maybe that obsession of using turns, the obsession of the. The relationship. So. And then you're waiting, you have to have that argument and you're waiting at, you know, midnight for that text to come back. You know, you're sitting there going, oh, what's going on? [02:09:38] Speaker C: She left me on red. [02:09:40] Speaker D: See, I don't care about things like that. [02:09:42] Speaker A: All those things, you know, not ready for it. [02:09:43] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:09:44] Speaker A: It's the same as the concert. I don't think you're ready for it. If you, if you're early in recovery and you haven't got the plan, you haven't got the emotional stability, sometimes you. [02:09:50] Speaker C: Just be too triggering. [02:09:52] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:09:52] Speaker A: You got to build your coping strategies. You've got to be able to deal with life. You've got to build your emotional resilience. Emotional resilience is like a big rubber band. Like if you. If you're not springing back into place straight away, if you're still wobbling on the outside for days and days and days with emotions, you're not ready for these big things, you're not ready, ready for. To go to these. [02:10:09] Speaker C: I feel like also knowing your triggers is a big thing as well. [02:10:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Before we do a lot of work. [02:10:14] Speaker C: Before going out places, because if you don't know your triggers, you're just automatically going to be putting yourself into bad situations for yourself. [02:10:21] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:10:22] Speaker A: Who are the people, what are the places, what are the things, what are the feelings, what are the internal, what are the external feelings? So really have a think about it, really design it, plan it out, understand it, know what you're going to come up against. Anyone who comes through the rehab and goes out on weekend leave, we go through a weekend leave plan and we understand exactly where they're going. Some people say, will say, you know, shopping centers, crowds, triggers. Okay. And then they've got in their plan that they're going to doodle up at Christmas time or they're going, you know, somewhere where it's packed a pillar. People with it's. You've identified it. Why put yourself in that position too early? [02:10:54] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:10:55] Speaker B: I did just have a thought, but it's just gone. So I've got more questions coming through. I did have some really cool points then. Hang on. What have you got there, Liz? I'm just reading some of these messages. [02:11:07] Speaker C: Coming through Are there any changes that you'd like to see in how our healthcare or legal system approach addicts? [02:11:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:11:14] Speaker C: Or approach addiction in general. [02:11:17] Speaker A: The biggest issue that I think we find is the er, emergency departments with mental health and addiction. I think that's the biggest hurdle they should have. Down in Freeman, they're the mental health unit in Fremantle on Elmer street. They're building a 40 bed facility for mental health and yeah. That it's going to be able to accommodate more people with mental health and drug and alcohol issues. I think again the stigma comes in, people come in. We'll sit in waiting rooms who've been drug induced psychosis or drug induced schizophrenia for a huge amount of time and they just can't stay in that environment. They can't stay in a waiting room but emergency room. [02:11:55] Speaker C: I mean half the time they'll be putting you on the side in a bed on the side of the room. [02:11:59] Speaker A: But it's not an emergency. No, it's, it might be for you, it might feel like it'd be. You triage it in. Is it, is it a heart attack? Is it, you know, or is it. [02:12:09] Speaker C: Someone having a schizophrenic episode and you'll. [02:12:12] Speaker A: Sit there for hours and hours and hours inside. [02:12:14] Speaker C: What do they do for someone that's having a schizophrenic episode? [02:12:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:12:17] Speaker C: So do they, do they give them drugs, more drugs? [02:12:22] Speaker A: There is like there's hospitals that will have the mental health units that will be able to put them in a safe place. But it's still, still a long time. [02:12:30] Speaker C: It's more of a wait it out kind of thing. [02:12:32] Speaker A: You've got, they're full of, you know, they don't have the beds so they're waiting for a bed. So they'll chuck you in a. Imagine being in a state that you're intoxicated, you're having delusions, you heard paranoid thoughts and they put you in a bed in a hallway with other screaming people. [02:12:46] Speaker D: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:12:48] Speaker A: I'd love to have a, have an answer for how to increase that but there's not enough funding, there's not enough awareness and funding around drug and alcohol and, and mental health, particularly because they go hand in hand and that's, that's usually when they're at the, at the hospitals because they either had an overdose, they're, they're delusional, they're halluc, hallucinating. They've had some sort of episode but there's not enough that they're just not staffed. There's not funded. [02:13:12] Speaker C: There's not 100%. [02:13:14] Speaker A: I think it's like there's places like, like for a long time there wasn't. If you had mental health issues and AOD issues there was nowhere for you to go. Is it in rehab? Not too complicated. It's too complex. So there are start. That model is starting to come in. They're starting to see that you know there's one and you've got the other. [02:13:31] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:13:32] Speaker C: And they, and they can go hand in hand and most of the time they do. [02:13:35] Speaker A: I don't know anyone who has come into, you know to my program or to the. At a rehab who hasn't experienced some sort of mental health issues that are associated with drug and alcohol. Even as just you know, as little put like that in exclamation marks as anxiety. You know, like that's. It's. It'll always be hand in hand. There will be something there. So I think they are starting to understand that and co occurring and understand that there is the dual diagnosis. Usually along the way it's getting better but again I think the model will increase over time. There is more awareness around it. It's getting, getting there but it's still. [02:14:11] Speaker C: Especially the more people voice. [02:14:13] Speaker A: That's it. But it's a slow process. It's a very slow process. [02:14:16] Speaker C: Changing the world always takes time. [02:14:19] Speaker A: Like trying to get. [02:14:19] Speaker C: It's not an instant overnight thing. [02:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Trying to get funding for rehabs is. Is takes years and years and years. You know I've had my CEO who has been working on getting funding for Tenacious House to. To ingredient to grow to get. We're a 15 bed rehab. You know, we'd like. It's a, it's. It's hard to get into our program because we are 15 bed and it. [02:14:38] Speaker C: And that's for at least a month at a time. [02:14:40] Speaker A: No, it's for you could be there up to 12 months. [02:14:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Wow. So that you know, and 15 beds, it's not, it's not a lot. [02:14:47] Speaker A: We don't have a time frame on it. So if you're in there, if you need help longer you need help and you need that time before you transition out of community. We'll keep you there. We're going to help you individually. So. So it's, it's hard to get into some places, some places are more the bigger beds but sometimes you can feel like a number. [02:15:03] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:15:04] Speaker C: 100. [02:15:04] Speaker A: You feel like you're not as, you. [02:15:06] Speaker C: Know as the support cared about. [02:15:08] Speaker A: That's right. [02:15:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:15:09] Speaker A: But trying to get funding to increase that or make have multiple facilities is near impossible. Yeah, you have to have the. You have to have the service contract in place, all the services in place to be able to get the funding. But you can't have the funding because you don't have the facility and the service in place to be able to get the funding. Like, it's a really. A loop model. It's really. [02:15:30] Speaker C: I mean, you think with all the money that they make every year off of imported drugs and things like that, you know, and alcohol tax, you think that they could build some more rehab centers? [02:15:39] Speaker A: Yeah, we're getting political and I don't do politics. [02:15:43] Speaker B: Don't do politics. [02:15:44] Speaker C: I love politics. [02:15:46] Speaker B: I did have a question from someone. Say if you're rehabilitating and say family members that aren't, how do you deal with that? And say, like, even your friend circle, trying to, you know, if they're trying to engage, being a friend and being supportive, but they're still using, obviously they're going to be triggers as well. So family and friends can be big triggers. [02:16:08] Speaker C: 100%. [02:16:09] Speaker B: Even if they're trying to be supportive, if they're still using or. Or whatever. [02:16:12] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [02:16:13] Speaker B: So I've just had a question about how. [02:16:15] Speaker D: How. Yeah. [02:16:16] Speaker B: How to navigate around that. [02:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:16:18] Speaker C: Personally, I distance myself. [02:16:20] Speaker A: I think you have to. Yeah. Again, we talked about those. That toxic relationships. We talked about that and having those toxic relationships in life. I've got a mate who every time I don't see very often anymore, I see him once in a blue moon, but when I do, he'll say, hey, man, have you got a plan to start drinking again? [02:16:38] Speaker C: I don't want to catch up. It's not with a beer. [02:16:40] Speaker A: No. Like, this is. This is not it for me. And you know, you have to. You don't have to be a dick about it, but you slowly just remove yourself. You start. Start pulling away. You start not. Not answering, or you start just like distancing and you start building the new relationships and the new foundations that are going to support you in it. And slowly they will understand. But you, you got to know that families in particular, they don't want you to change. [02:17:07] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:17:07] Speaker B: Because then they're forced to look at. [02:17:09] Speaker A: Themselves and they're going, well, they'll look at you and say, well, is he thinking he's better than us now? Yeah, because he's changed. [02:17:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:17:17] Speaker C: That's crazy. That's crazy. Like, they should be your biggest support. [02:17:21] Speaker A: To mates will try and pull you back. [02:17:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:17:23] Speaker A: And say, hey, like, what are you Doing you loser. [02:17:25] Speaker C: Sometimes your mates are your family really, aren't they? [02:17:27] Speaker A: They are your chosen family. So. Yeah, exactly, you know, so yes, it's, it's very, very difficult subject, but my advice and my encouragement would be to slowly distance yourself. You're rebuilding a different life. You do going into different. You're building new values. You will align with new people who have the similar values and want the same thing and want to progress in life without the drugs and alcohol. And you will build relationships with them. You may be able to get to a point where you can then maybe potentially share the message of recovery with them. Hey, this is what I've done. And I had. There's been people who I know have reached out to me and said, hey, I've loved what you've done. You inspire me. I'm going to try that. Yeah, but I wouldn't go at them. You know, I encourage like blokes who, we build strong foundations and strong friendships and brotherhood within the rehab or when they're in the fellowships or in those groups. And if someone really relapses, you encourage them to get back to that point. But you also have to keep yourself safe. [02:18:28] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:18:29] Speaker A: So you also have to remove. You say, okay, I'm going to set this boundary in place to keep me safe. Because you're the most important. If you put anything in front of your recovery, you try to save someone else and your recovery is not in the first in your front, you're going to lose it. If you put a relationship in front of your relationship, you put a job in. Sorry, you put a relationship in front of your recovery, you're going to lose your recovery because you've lose focus. If you're going to put mine, my kids and my wife are so important to me, but I still go to a meeting every single week, religiously non negotiable, without any. Sometimes things will pop up, but it's set in concrete and if they get in the way and they don't understand that or they need the education on who do they want in their life? [02:19:07] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:19:08] Speaker A: So. But yeah, you'll get, you'll always get people who are trying to drag you back into the old world, trying to drag you back into old patterns of behavior because they don't want to change and they're scared of their change and they don't want to look, look at themselves and they feel like they're being left behind, being abandoned. So you can't hang around with them. [02:19:25] Speaker D: No. [02:19:25] Speaker B: So hopefully that's answered some, some of those questions we've had. And thank you for sending in the questions and your. [02:19:33] Speaker C: It's been great to have some questions tonight, guys. We're loving something to riff off. [02:19:37] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:19:38] Speaker A: Awesome. [02:19:38] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:19:38] Speaker B: And so I think importantly it. How do people connect with you and Rebuild Recovery? [02:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I am hopeless. Like, I'm just like, I've got this great program, Rebuild Recovery, but I'm so terrible with the whole marketing stuff. [02:19:56] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:19:56] Speaker C: Social media you can have. It's tricky. It's true. [02:19:58] Speaker A: The best program in the world. But if you don't know how to use social media, I'm just learning how to do. But Hayden Thorne. Look me up, Hayden Thorne. [02:20:06] Speaker B: I'll put you on the IPL page. [02:20:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Have a look at my stuff. I'm starting to do some podcasts. I'm starting. Start to sort of grow. I'll do a message every day. Sometimes it'd be controversial, sometimes it's very relatable. Yeah. Follow me along, send me a message. Love to have a chat. Like, I'm not, I'm not all about the sales. Like, I'd love to more help you and sort of give you advice and give you direction. Like, I get a lot of guys who say, hey, mate, the thing is a lot of blokes who can't afford coaching at the moment, so. But I'll send them like a structural. Hey, here's a foundational based worksheet that I'll work on that would get you started. Let me know how you go. I'll be here for you, you know, so, yeah, just. Yeah. Hayden Thorne. [02:20:44] Speaker D: Yep, yep. [02:20:44] Speaker B: So you can find me. [02:20:45] Speaker A: Rebuild Recovery is there. But I think it went to an American. [02:20:48] Speaker B: It did, it did. I'm like, I clicked on it. [02:20:50] Speaker A: Rebuild Recovery Perth, not Rebuild Recovery America. [02:20:52] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:20:53] Speaker B: Because it's still on your Facebook. [02:20:54] Speaker A: I didn't, I've never seen it. [02:20:55] Speaker C: You're not American on your Facebook. [02:20:58] Speaker B: And you get that one. [02:20:59] Speaker A: You'll have to show me. [02:20:59] Speaker B: I will. I will show you. [02:21:00] Speaker A: We'll see if we can rectify that. [02:21:02] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:21:02] Speaker A: Again, I'm great with social media. [02:21:06] Speaker B: Oh, well, this is just the start of bigger things. Yeah, yeah. So you're doing podcasting. You've done some episodes. How many have you done now? [02:21:12] Speaker A: Done four. So it's early stage at the moment. I, I think that I'm just trying to get some information out there at the moment. Trying to get some people sharing the knowledge. Yeah. I'd love to get some people in to share their story with me as well. [02:21:24] Speaker B: How do you pick the subjects for these because they're. You're just starting. [02:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:21:29] Speaker B: Was this a hard thing to come to a decision on? Like, how do you pick? Okay, this is my first podcast. I'm going to make it about this. [02:21:38] Speaker A: Like, I. Can. I share my story now and do that. But first, initially, coming out and coming out and being vulnerable and saying, hey, I've had a problem with addiction. I'm in recovery now. It was probably one of the hardest things I did. I still felt so much guilt and shame around my story and the people I'd hurt and all that, and. And I. I just want to protect the people I love as well. You know, I had to make the decision to say, hey, yeah, because some. [02:22:03] Speaker B: People, some family members don't want you advertising it. They're great that you've rehabilitated. They don't want it out there. [02:22:09] Speaker C: We don't want all our dirty laundry. [02:22:11] Speaker B: You know, that's how you stay sober. [02:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:22:15] Speaker B: Owning it. [02:22:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:22:16] Speaker D: 100. [02:22:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:22:17] Speaker B: And then obviously, I've had lots of comments about how honest you've been and how raw. Like, you know, and it's so. It's relatable. [02:22:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:22:26] Speaker B: So I think that's how you connect as well. [02:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:22:29] Speaker B: Through that. [02:22:30] Speaker A: Our lived experience, our shared experience is our superpower, guys. [02:22:33] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:22:34] Speaker A: It. We can't help others without knowing what we're talking about. So share your story. Share your story. [02:22:40] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:22:40] Speaker A: Get out there and connect with people and tell them your comeback story. Tell them what you've done. Look, I don't have all the answers here. I've built some structure, and I've built some things in place that people have taught me and shared with me along the way, and now I implement them like they. Like. My life depends on it, because it does. So, you know, it's. I've learned how to become. Yeah. Brutally honest and be okay with it. You know, I shared earlier that this is my story. It's brought me to this path right now. It's my purpose now. I have a mission to help others. You know, it might be fire this podcast, or is this radio station that has resonated with one person. [02:23:14] Speaker D: Person. [02:23:15] Speaker A: Amazing. You know, it's helped one person today. I'm so very, very grateful for you. And. Yeah. Reach out to me. I'd love to hear from you. [02:23:23] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:23:23] Speaker B: So. [02:23:24] Speaker D: And we'll. [02:23:24] Speaker B: We'll put up a link to your recovery, your rebuild. Recovery. [02:23:28] Speaker A: I'm building it, guys. It's. It's. [02:23:29] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:23:30] Speaker B: Rebuild. [02:23:30] Speaker C: Recovery. [02:23:31] Speaker D: Perth. [02:23:31] Speaker C: Not America. Not American here, guys. [02:23:33] Speaker B: I have to show you. [02:23:34] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. [02:23:35] Speaker B: Can I ask you one question. The. The comment that Uncle Gary made to you about, I love you, but I don't like you. [02:23:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:23:45] Speaker B: When has he obviously spoken about how proud he is? When did that all change? When did you get that? You know, how did that feel? [02:23:55] Speaker A: Probably let me know. Dad, when was that? He. He's super proud of me. [02:24:03] Speaker D: Yeah, He. [02:24:05] Speaker A: I just had a message like, Debbie's crying. She's listening in. She's so proud of me. She loves me. You know, my dad is. Is exactly the same. I don't know if there's a. A pinpoint time in life where I realized, you know, I noticed this. [02:24:18] Speaker C: I think he likes me again. [02:24:20] Speaker A: Yeah, he's always supported me. He's one of the. He's his resilience. Man's resilience. He recently, last year, had a. He broke his leg. Yeah, he broke his leg. He had a shipping container unit. One of the awnings fell down and snapped his leg. Leg had bones through there, but he. And he's, you know, in his 70s, and he is now, you know, on Sunday, he's doing the city to surf. You know, he's going to walk the city, you know, so he couldn't walk. He couldn't walk for so long. So this man's resilience, I can imagine. [02:24:51] Speaker C: Being an amputee, it takes a long time to be able to say, oh, he's got it. No, I was thinking, like. I was thinking like a shipping container fell down. [02:25:00] Speaker A: I just cut his leg clean off, just completely. [02:25:04] Speaker B: Because I think Auntie literally, and Uncle Pete was there and saw it all happen. [02:25:07] Speaker A: Yeah, they were. It was pretty traumatizing for everyone, I think. Unfortunate accident. But he has healed, recovered. He's still got some issues with walking. He finds it difficult to get up some steps. He had to sell his ute. Now he's got a nice lower car. [02:25:23] Speaker C: That he's shorter to the ground. [02:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah, he's given up. He's given up some of his hobbies and things he loves to do for his own recovery. So. Own personal story, but the man's resilience inspires me every day. [02:25:34] Speaker C: So hopefully he can get back into that stuff when he's fully. Fully healed back up again. [02:25:38] Speaker A: He's got. He's. He's always. [02:25:40] Speaker B: I believe he's doing the city to surf. [02:25:42] Speaker C: That's what I mean. Like, he's already. He's already doing the city to surf. So, like, how much harder can he go? [02:25:50] Speaker A: He's gonna hobble it through, but, you know, that's the Determination. And that's the stuff that I inspired, too, and I want to pass on to my boy. And he. He does the same to my boy and, like, I love him to death and I'm so proud of him and I'm. I'm glad that I'm now and he loves me and he likes me again. [02:26:04] Speaker D: Yeah, of course he would. Yeah. Yeah. [02:26:06] Speaker B: You're an inspiration. [02:26:07] Speaker D: I swear you are. [02:26:08] Speaker B: And just hearing all this and learning more about you has been really cool, too. Thank you for. [02:26:13] Speaker C: Been great having you in the studio. Thank you for coming. [02:26:15] Speaker B: I don't think I've ever sat here this quiet, actually. [02:26:17] Speaker C: No, this is. This is a full verse. [02:26:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:26:20] Speaker C: Normally she's going off one thing for. [02:26:23] Speaker B: The next, but it has been really transforming, transformative for all of us, I think. [02:26:28] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:26:28] Speaker B: So, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for sharing your story. Yeah, thank you and, yeah, thank you for joining us. Everyone listening at home, shout out to. Do you want to shout out to anyone? [02:26:38] Speaker A: Look. Yeah, yeah. [02:26:40] Speaker C: Shout out to dad. [02:26:40] Speaker A: Yeah, Shout out to everyone you know who you are. Thank you for supporting me. Thank you for loving me. Thank you for bringing me back to life. You're all amazing people. You've got. I've got. Got so many great supports in my life and. And I encourage you to build the same. So, yeah, thank you to everyone. [02:26:53] Speaker B: Thank you. And we'll see you next week on all the Things. [02:26:56] Speaker C: Thank you and good night. [02:26:58] Speaker D: There we go. [02:27:01] Speaker A: More music. Better Mental health. Only on ipl Rad.